study of oriental arms in poland

[B.I]

hi,
wolviex rightly prevented a good post being diverted, but i thought it would good to create its own thread, in the hope that others will contribute. i had the opinion that it was thought that there was not much polish contribution to the study of oriental arms, which i have to disagree with. there is a strong passion for oriental arms in poland, and there is much respect for the academic study, and collections gathered there.

from jim -

"Szabla Zotnierza Polskiego XIX i XX wiek"
Aleksander Czerwinski and Leslaw Dudek, Warsaw, 1988

"Polish Arms, Side Arms" by Andrzej Nadolski, Warsaw, 1974

"Piec Wiekow Szabli Polskiej" by Wlodzimierz Kwasniewicz, Warsaw, 1993

"Ciecia Prawdziwa Szabla" by Wojciech Zablocki, Warsaw, 1989

and most valuable and of broader scope,
"Bron W Dawnej Polsce", by Dr. Zdzislaw Zygulski Jr. Warsaw, 1975

from tim -

Orez Perski. 2000. Museum Zamkowe W Malborku. ISBN 83-86206-31-4

from my library -

bron i uzbrojenie tatarow (outstanding study of tartar arms and armour)

collections of royal castle of wawel

arcydziela sztuki perskiej ze zbiorow polskich (good exhibition catalogue)

stara bron w polskich zbiorach (great book from polish collections)

wojna i pokoj (absolutely outstanding and comprehensive exhibition catalogue of ottoman arms - also published in english called 'war and peace'

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Brian,
Nicely done!! Thank you for redirecting this.
A short time ago we had a pretty good thread going concerning the development of the sabre, and I think there we pretty much realized the profound influence that oriental arms had on Polish and Hungarian weapons.
With this being the case, and the centuries of conflict between the Turks and Eastern Europe, it seems quite well placed that they have such an interest and understanding of these weapons.
It is also interesting that the famed hussar regiments developed from the Turkish 'sipahi' and eventually influenced the cavalries of all of Europe via Poland and Hungary.

While most of the books I cited had focus on the Polish weapons, the distinct oriental influence is key in the material.

Very best regards,
Jim

[wolviex]

B.I. - I should be the first one to thank you for this post. You and Jim made me happy and proud of the place where I live.

There is pure true in Jim's words about Turkish-Polish relations, which gave us understanding of their war/weapon culture. Many weapons was adopted from Ottoman Empire in 17th century here in Poland. Persian art proucts were very popular. Some of them (Turkish and Persian) even became Polish national weapons as karabela for example.

Tomorrow I'll bring you a list of Polish books on this topic. Anyway I hope to. Oriental researches in Poland were made on many plots, the weapons are the small one, while for real only prof. Zdzislaw Zygulski made most important job here. I will only tell here about great Persian exhibition (in 2001 year probably) in Krakow and Warsaw. Well, the oriental collections in Poland have their own history too. If you poses "Peace and War" catalog, there you will see few objects from my musuem collection (National Museum in Krakow, by the way)

Best regards and thank you once more!!

[B.I]

hi jim,
i agree, there is a very clear link between polish arms and armour and that of the regions further east. swords aside, you only have to see the polish or hungarian helmets to see the ottoman influence. i must admit a distinct lack of more european influenced references in my library, but i always aim for eastern european and surrounding countries as this similarity is very apparant.
unfortunately, the polish language is hard to pick through and it is frustrating when you know full well that the book you have holds important information, and yet all you can do is look at the pretty pictures.
wolviex would have an interesting and fulfilling (if not very well paid) change of career if he got into the book translation business

[wolviex]

B.I - with my English competence it would be a short career indeed

What can I say, of course I wont be able to tranlate for you every Polish book you'll pick, but I can offer you some help in hard and frustrating moments

[B.I]

hi wolviex,
your english is better than my polish and so you have the advantage. also, i would be careful about offering translation services so freely, or you will have the career change without the paycheque at the end of each month
the war and peace exhibition was wonderful and i really wish i had gone. the catalogue is fabulous and i will go through it soon and pick out the pieces from your museum. my copy of the catalogue is in polish unfortuantely, but i have access to other libraries and a friend has a copy of the english version, which i look at when i need a particular translation. i may take you up on your offer, but will do so carefully and wont push my luck
i look forward to your book list.

[ariel]

It is interesting that the best (available!) books on the subject of "Oriental" arms and armour are of European authorship: Persian weapons by Chodynski, Turkish by Astvatsaturyan, Indian and Arabian by Elgood , Indonesian by van Zonneveld, African by Spring, a whole slew by the Brits (Rawson, Robinson, Egerton, North) and , of course, encyclopedias by Stone , Blair/Tarassuk , and major works by Nicolle and Lebedynsky.
The Japanese wrote very extensively on their own weapons, but with this exception I am aware only of Pant's 3-volume set on Indian weapons and the new Ensiklopedia Kris (don't have it and forgot the name) as "native" books.
Is it because of the "academic pursuits" encouraged in the Western cultures or simply because we are just plain ignorant on the local scholarship?
Are there any truly important books on Oriental arms written by the native authors?
I do not want my input to be misconstrued as "Eurocentric" and dismissive of native scholarship; on the contrary, I really would like to get some info on important " horse's mouth" books.

[Rivkin]

I can't speak for all the orient, but with respect to caucasian weapons I've noticed (partly on my example) that the arrogance "I'm caucasian I know about these things" is probably the most dangerous factor.

The notion that there is some genetic caucasian "culture" that allows one to understand and know kindjals and shashkas without reading books is so dominant that sometimes it's impossible to even discuss anything.

I've heard that similar attitude is prelevant in Japan.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Rivkin, the fact that you are Caucasian does not mean anything here on the forum. What means something, is to help others with lesser knowledge than oneself, and I think you have done fine so far in the discussions on ‘Magnetic’.
I must also say, that I think Ariel has a point. There have not, so far been many books published in English, which is the language the most members on this forum reads, by authors from where the weapons we try to learn about come.
I, like several of the members on this forum, am unfortunate not to read or speak more than three or four languages, and can therefore not read book written in languages from far away. I am sorry it is so, but this has nothing to do with anyone’s nationality – it is a lack of linguistic.

Jens

[B.I]

i agree, but there is a resurgance of books written on indian art by indians, and luckily it is mosty in english. these publications find themselves in a western market, and most can easily be found in online booksellers. they never seem to push past known knowledge unfortunately and therefore are seldom taken seriously (hence the ommision in bibliographies) pant seems to have dominated the indian market for arms but his books are of little academic use. i dont think a book on arms could have been published without being known, especially as many indian booksellers freely sell abroad.
turkey, however, has done an outstanding job in their participation to serious knowledge. many publications find their way over the web and are not too difficult to find. its criminal that they are shelved with the other, non academic picture books, as until i learn turkish, thats all them can be. picking through them you now that there is good information there.
if you think about how many books have actually been published in english by western authors, there isnt much (in comparison to time if you reach back as far as egerton).
jens, i am envious you can speak ONLY 3 or 4 launguages. we tend to go abroad and in our arrogance, expect everyone to speak english. there are books on my shelves i would truly love to be able to read.

[Jens Nordlunde]

The correct way of putting it, would have been Speaking/understanding .

Jens

[wolviex]

Dear Friends!

Yes, it's true that Oriental weapons were always beloved in Poland. From the 16th century the trade with Persia was in bloom. The Turkish weapon inspired Polish one, then in 20th century Polish scholars begun to interest with Orient art. The weapons researches are only a drop in the bucket. There are many scholars well known in the world thanks to their work on Eastern cloths or decorative arts. I feel somehow that study on oriental weapons were always in Poland a little randomly. Just prof. Zdzislaw Zygulski was the first one which started more advanced researches, traveling to Iran, Iraq, Turkey and other places, expanding acquaintances around the world. Althought his work isn't focused just on one topic. He was interested in Polish, Turkish, Persian, Japanese weapons - real man of renaissance. I can't tell how far all this books published in Poland are free of mistakes. How do they compared with results given by the authors around the world, my knowledge here is still to small. Anyway in Polish literature are still many lacks - no one wrote about Yatagans, krises, talwars and many more. Most of the studies were focused on armour and sabres, which inspired Polish ones.

Below you can see a list of books on study of Oriental arms and armour in Poland. I belive it's not full, but it seems to me here you will find most important ones, plus something less important. Among listed books you will find many magazines also. First expert magazine on arms and armour in Poland was "Bron i Barwa" [Arms and Uniforms] published just before the war. This is basic of our knowledge in Poland, althought many articles are outdated, anyway these are foundations of Polish scholars on these topic. After the war most important magazine was (and it is) "Studia do dziejow dawnego uzbrojenia i munduru wojskowego" [Studies on history of old Arms and military uniforms] edited, among the others, by prof. Zygulski. Unfortunately it is published from time to time, irregulary, lately the 12th part was printed.

I tried to translate for you Polish titles for your convenience as best as I could, I put it in [ ] brackets. List is sorted by authors.

Best regards!



- Arcydziela sztuki perskiej ze zbiorow polskich [Masterworks of Persian art in Polish collections], editor Tadeusz Majda, Muzeum Narodowe w Warszawie 2002;

- Sztuka perska okresu kadzarskiego 1779-1924 [Persian art of Kajar (?) period 1779-1924], editor Tadeusz Majda, Muzeum Zamoyskich w Kozlowce 1996;

- Orez perski i indoperski XVI-XIX w. ze zbiorow polskich [Persian and Indopersian arms from the 16th to 19th centuries in Polish collections], editor Romuald Chodynski, Malbork 2000-2001;


Zbigniew Bochenski
- Un groupe des casques hongrois dorés du XVIe siècle, „Armi Antiche”, Torino 1965;
- Supplément au problème des casques hongrois dorés, „Armi Antiche”, Torino 1966;
- Dwa szyszaki węgierskie w zbiorach polskich [Two Hungarian Zischägge in Polish collections], „Ochrona zabytkow”, t. II, Warszawa-Krakow 1949;
- Szable z sygnaturą Assad-Ullaha w krakowskiem Muzeum Narodowem [Sabres with Assad-Ullah marks in Krakow’s National Museum], „Bron i barwa”, R. III, nr 4, 1936
- Bechter z roku 1580 i jego pochodzenie na tle typologiczno-porownawczym [The „Bekhter”, a body armour of plates and mail, made in 1580, and its typology], „Studia i materialy do dziejow dawnego uzbrojenia i ubioru wojskowego”, T. V, Krakow 1971;

Jerzy Grobicki
- O nozach perskich [On Persian knives], „Bron i barwa”, R. II, nr 2, 1935;

Jacek Gutowski
- Bron i uzbrojenie Tatarow [Arms and armour of Tartars],

Czeslaw Jarnuszkiewicz
- Szabla wschodnia i jej typy narodowe [Oriental sabre and its national types], London 1974;
- Stara broń w Persji dzisiejszej [Antique weapons in today’s Persia], „Bron i barwa”, R. I, nr 7, 1934;
- Muzeum broni starego seraju w Stambule [Arms Museum of Old Seraj (?) in Instanbul], „Bron i barwa”, R. II, nr 10-11, 1935

Marian Hernik
- Biała broń Kaukazu [Edged weapons of Caucasus], „Bron i barwa”, R. I, nr 6, 1934;
- Broń Dalekiego Wschodu [Weapons of Far East], „Bron i barwa”, R. II, nr 10-11, 1935;

Tadeusz Mankowski
- Sztuka Islamu w Polsce w XVII i XVIII wieku [The Art of the Islam in Poland in the 17th and 18th centuries], Krakow 1935;
- Influence of Islamic art in Poland, “Ars Islamica”, T. 2;
- Sztuka Ormian lwowskich [The art of Lviv’s Ormians], Krakow 1934;

Stanislaw Meyer
- Europejskie glownie przy indyjskich szablach [European blades at Indian sabres], „Bron i barwa”, R. II, nr 10-11, 1935;
- Kiedy zyl Assad Ullah [When does Assad-Ullah lived], „Bron i barwa”, R. II, nr 7, 1935;
- Tatarskie pochodzenie szabel polskich zwanych „ormianskiemi” [Tartar origin of the Polish „ormian” sabres], „Bron i barwa”, R. III, nr 6, 1936;
- Szyszak wschodni z XVI w. [Oriental Zischägge from 16th century], „Bron i barwa”, R. IV, nr 9, 1937;

Jerzy Piaskowski
- O stali damascenskiej [On damask steel], Wroclaw 1974;

Jerzy Piaskowski, Alan Maisey
- Technology of early Indonesian keris: the result of metallographic examinations of the ganjas, Warszawa 1995;

Jerzy Podoski
- Bulaty [The damask steel], „Bron i barwa”, R. I, nr 2-3, 1934;
- Damasty skuwane [The wootz steel], „Bron i barwa”, R. II, nr 10-11, 1935;
- Legenda damastow [The legend of the damask], „Bron i barwa”, R. II, nr 12, 1935;

Wladyslaw Tomkiewcz
- Zbroja japonska [Japanese armour], „Bron i barwa”, R. V, nr 10, 1938;

Jerzy Werner
- Polska bron. Luk i kusza [Polish Arms. Bow and Crossbow], Wroclaw 1974;
- Luk refleksyjny i jego okazy w zbiorach krakowskich [The composite bow and some specimens of it in Krakow collections], „Studia i materialy do dziejow dawnego uzbrojenia i ubioru wojskowego”, T. III, Krakow 1967;

Zdzislaw Zygulski jr.
- Bron Wschodnia [Oriental Arms], Warszawa 1983;
- Bron w dawnej Polsce – na tle uzbrojenia Europy i Bliskiego Wschodu [Arms in Poland – compared with European and Near Eatern armament], Warszawa 1975;
- Samurajowie [Samurais], Muzeum Narodowe w Krakowie, Krakow 1991
- Swiatła Stambułu [Lights of Instanbul], Warszawa 1999;
- Sztuka Perska [Persian Art], Warszawa 2002;
- Sztuka Turecka [Turkish Art.], Warszawa 1988;
- Ottoman Art in the Service of the Empire, New York 1992;
- Stara bron w polskich zbiorach [Old weapons in Polish collections], Warszawa 1982;
- Oriental and Levantine Firearms [in] Pollard’s History of Firearms, Feltham 1983;
- Sztuka Islamu w zbiorach polskich [Islamic art in Polish collections] , Warszawa 1989;
- Islamic Weapons in Polish Collections and their provenance [in] Islamic Arms and Armour, London 1979;
- Choragwie tureckie w Polsce [Turkish flags in Poland], „Studia do dziejow Wawelu”, t.3, 1968;
- Turkish Trophies in Poland and the Imperial Ottoman Style, “Armi Antiche”, Torino 1972;
- Geneza i typologia bulaw hetmanskich [Origin and typology of hetmans’ bulawa (maces)], „Muzealnictwo wojskowe”, T. 2, Warszawa 1964;
- Kalkan – tarcza orientu [Kalkan – the shield of Orient], „Muzealnictwo wojskowe”, T. 7, Warszawa 2000;
- Karabela i szabla orla [The Karabela and the Eagle Sabre], „Studia i materialy do dziejow dawnego uzbrojenia i ubioru wojskowego”, T. VII, Krakow 1978;
- The elements of Islamic culture in the Polish Sarmatism of the 16th-18th centuries, „Actas des XXIII Congres International de Historia del Arte, Granada 1973;
- Wschód w zbiorach wawelskich [Orient in Wawel Castle collection], “Przegląd orientalistyczny”, nr 4, 1960;

[wolviex]

Originally Posted by B.I

hi wolviex,
your english is better than my polish and so you have the advantage. also, i would be careful about offering translation services so freely, or you will have the career change without the paycheque at the end of each month .

Oh come on, I'm idealist, and I don't need anything but the passion to survive.... do you think that's the reason I'm starving....




PS. Some of the books quote by you at the start, like "Szabla zolnierza polskiego" by Czerwinski and Dudek, or "Piec wiekow szabli polskiej" aren't about oriental arms , maybe, in the second book it is only mentioned but nothing more, I think

Regards!

[B.I]

OUTSTANDING!!!!

Thank you kindly for spending my money i shall look forward to the search for these references. do you have access to all of these in the museum? if so, can i get some answers on questions i may get in the future (about content of a particular book)?

[Jens Nordlunde]

wolviex, I think we can thank ourselves, that we have a member like you amongst us.

Jens

[Mare Rosu]

WOLVIEX
I must agree with B.I. and JENS you sir are one, most unusual man.
Having great knowledge and the desire to share it, along with a superb sense of humor, a very hard combination to beat, in my opinion.
I am glad you are here to help us (me) in the quest for knowledge.
Gene

[Rivkin]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Rivkin, the fact that you are Caucasian does not mean anything here on the forum. What means something, is to help others with lesser knowledge than oneself, and I think you have done fine so far in the discussions on ‘Magnetic’.
Jens

Thank you, but what I've meant is that "natives" usually are not at all more knowlagleble than "foreigners". Very few indians, japanese, iranians etc. had anything to do with a sword production or appraisal, so it's not that much of a surprise (at least to me) that the places which produce most of history books also produce majority of sword related books.

What surprised me a lot is the sheer number of books published in Poland.

[wolviex]

B.I., Jens, Mare Rosu - thank you for very kind words !!!

[wolviex]

And few more books for you, published in Poland. These are only booklets, small catalogs with black and white photos, but better this than nothing

Maria Dzieduszycka, Janusz Kamocki
- Bron Indonezji, katalog ze zbiorow Andrzeja Wawrzyniaka [Indonesian weapons, catalog of Andrzej Wawrzyniak’s collection], Krakow 1974;

Maria Dzieduszycka, Stanislaw Kobielski
- Uzbrojenie dawnej Japoni [Armament in old Japan], Katalog, Krakow 1974;

Janusz Kamocki
- Sztuka wyspy Bali, katalog wystawy [The art of Bali Island, catalog from the exbition], Olsztyn 1976;
- Sztuka Inonezji, katalog wystawy [The art of Indonesia, catalog from the exhibition], Poznan-Krakow 1968;

Jerzy Piaskowski
- The manufacture of mediaeval damascened knives, „Journal of the Iron and Steel Institute”, vol. 202, July 1964;


Regards!

[Kamil]

Hi,
Wolviex, here are few more Polish booklets, this time published outside Krakow

Zbigniew Filarski
Bron ludow Indonezji [The weapons of the Peoples of Indonesia] (Catalogue of the Asia and Pacific Museum), Warsaw 1979

Zofia Ananicz
Tradycyjna bron afganska [Traditional Afghan Weapons] (Catalogue of the Asia and Pacific Museum), Warsaw 1987

Krzysztof Morawski
Magiczna bron z nieba. Krisy i inna bron indonezyjska [Magic Weapons from Heaven. Kerises and Other Indonesian Weapons] (Catalogue of the Asia and Pacific Museum), Warsaw 2003

Greetings
Kamil

[wolviex]

Thanks Kamil

Shame on me I didn't know this books. But on the other hand none of the Krakow's libraries have them, including Jagiellonian (nomen omen one of the biggest in Poland )

regards!

[Kamil]

You're welcome, Wolviex.
And there is also:
M. Gradowski, Z. Zygulski, Slownik uzbrojenia historycznego [A Dictionary of historical armour], Warsaw 1998
I believe the Jagiellonian Library is great; possibly its staff ignores books published in Warsaw? It's a joke of course. I suppose that some of them are still available at the Asia and Pacific Museum's shop
Greetings
Kamil

[ariel]

My God!
I always knew Poles were somewhat crazy about military matters of the things past (at least most of my Polish friends are), but I never realized that Poland is a world center of academic research on old arms and armour!
It's almost like household electronics: everything was made in Taiwan.
My hat is off to you, guys!

[wolviex]

Originally Posted by ariel

My God!
I always knew Poles were somewhat crazy about military matters of the things past (at least most of my Polish friends are), but I never realized that Poland is a world center of academic research on old arms and armour!
It's almost like household electronics: everything was made in Taiwan.
My hat is off to you, guys!

And this books are ONLY on Oriental Weapons, Ariel

Thanks Kamil, I have just send an e-mail to the Asia and Pacific Museum