Darfia Copper Alloy question

Gavin Nugent · 15th December 2010, 02:06 PM

A question for the Darfia;

The old Thai Daarb attached has a nice scabbard covered in a copper alloy that shines like silver in some lights and copper in other lights and has a definate copper hue.

Whilst copper alloys have been around since ancient times...see Wiki; Copper is often alloyed with precious metals like silver and gold, to create, for example, Corinthian bronze, hepatizon, tumbaga and shakudo.)

There is no mention in the Wiki text on copper alloys that are native to SEA which leads me to ask, what is the native Thai term for such a mixed alloy as presented in the image attached.

Gav

kronckew · 15th December 2010, 08:20 PM

suassa? certainly used on indonesian/malay stuff....

Quote:

Originally Posted by vvv

It's 25% gold, 19% silver and 56% copper.

Forum linky

Battara · 15th December 2010, 08:44 PM

SE Asia has had a long history of alloys. Silver and copper, brass (zinc and copper), bronze (tin and copper), white metal (nickel and copper), and as Kronckew says, swassa (roughly gold and copper). These goes back centuries.

Gavin Nugent · 15th December 2010, 09:52 PM

Thanks guys,

I deliberately left Suassa out of my initial comments knowing it is found on some of my Sumatran pieces and has the typical gold/copper hue... this piece pre dates them by about 150 years, is from Another region and has a copper/ silver hue.
Do the Dhafia purists refer to this sheath covering as Suassa? By another name?? Or is the term for this alloy unknown?

Gav

Battara · 16th December 2010, 01:21 AM

Suassa has gold involved. If it is a silver/copper alloy it is not suassa.

Gavin Nugent · 18th December 2010, 01:29 PM

Interesting note, reading a previous thread on the ole Thai swords, it was noted in one posting that copper was one of the mediums worn by people of rank. Any further ideas on what rank a person had to be to display this material in such a manner?

Any takers on the copper silver alloy naming or other usage.

Gav

Nathaniel · 18th December 2010, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebooter

Interesting note, reading a previous thread on the ole Thai swords, it was noted in one posting that copper was one of the mediums worn by people of rank. Any further ideas on what rank a person had to be to display this material in such a manner?

Any takers on the copper silver alloy naming or other usage.

Gav

Interesting Gav, can you cite the thread regarding the copper & rank?

I do not doubt it. I've seen with some Thai swords a copper, brass or gold disk/ or small tsuba.

Nathaniel · 18th December 2010, 10:24 PM

Electrum = Naturally occurring silver & gold alloy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrum

List of Alloys
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_alloys

There are different hues of gold...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colored_gold

Gavin Nugent · 19th December 2010, 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nathaniel

Electrum = Naturally occurring silver & gold alloy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrum

List of Alloys
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_alloys

There are different hues of gold...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colored_gold

Thanks Nathaniel,

Following your links further I came to this one;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billon_(alloy)

It explains a mixture of both materials and its ancient roots.

Thanks

Gav

Andrew · 19th December 2010, 05:25 PM

No idea what that alloy would be called, Gav, but that sword is sweet!

Gavin Nugent · 24th December 2010, 05:43 AM

Thanks Andrew and Merry Christmas to all.

Gav

PUFF · 24th December 2010, 12:59 PM

Gold-Copper alloy is called "Naak" (นาก) in Thai.
The composition may varied, higher quality "Naak" may contain up to 60% gold.
I 'm not sure if silver always included.

By tradition, the material used by wealthy peasant class as Gold metal is reserved for royal class and silver is for lord/high rank officer or other similar classes. The tradition was, however, faded out around C19.

Gavin Nugent · 26th December 2010, 09:40 AM

Thank you for dropping in Puff.

You information adds an interesting dimension to the sword.

cheers

Gav

15th December 2010, 02:06 PM	#1
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Darfia Copper Alloy question A question for the Darfia; The old Thai Daarb attached has a nice scabbard covered in a copper alloy that shines like silver in some lights and copper in other lights and has a definate copper hue. Whilst copper alloys have been around since ancient times...see Wiki; Copper is often alloyed with precious metals like silver and gold, to create, for example, Corinthian bronze, hepatizon, tumbaga and shakudo.) There is no mention in the Wiki text on copper alloys that are native to SEA which leads me to ask, what is the native Thai term for such a mixed alloy as presented in the image attached. Gav Attached Images

15th December 2010, 09:52 PM	#4
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	The Suassa Thanks guys, I deliberately left Suassa out of my initial comments knowing it is found on some of my Sumatran pieces and has the typical gold/copper hue... this piece pre dates them by about 150 years, is from Another region and has a copper/ silver hue. Do the Dhafia purists refer to this sheath covering as Suassa? By another name?? Or is the term for this alloy unknown? Gav

18th December 2010, 01:29 PM	#6
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Interesting Interesting note, reading a previous thread on the ole Thai swords, it was noted in one posting that copper was one of the mediums worn by people of rank. Any further ideas on what rank a person had to be to display this material in such a manner? Any takers on the copper silver alloy naming or other usage. Gav

24th December 2010, 05:43 AM	#11
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Cheers Thanks Andrew and Merry Christmas to all. Gav

26th December 2010, 09:40 AM	#13
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Thank you Thank you for dropping in Puff. You information adds an interesting dimension to the sword. cheers Gav

15th December 2010, 08:44 PM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	SE Asia has had a long history of alloys. Silver and copper, brass (zinc and copper), bronze (tin and copper), white metal (nickel and copper), and as Kronckew says, swassa (roughly gold and copper). These goes back centuries.

16th December 2010, 01:21 AM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Suassa has gold involved. If it is a silver/copper alloy it is not suassa.

18th December 2010, 10:24 PM	#8
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Electrum = Naturally occurring silver & gold alloy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrum List of Alloys http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_alloys There are different hues of gold... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colored_gold

19th December 2010, 05:25 PM	#10
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	No idea what that alloy would be called, Gav, but that sword is sweet!

24th December 2010, 12:59 PM	#12
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	Gold-Copper alloy is called "Naak" (นาก) in Thai. The composition may varied, higher quality "Naak" may contain up to 60% gold. I 'm not sure if silver always included. By tradition, the material used by wealthy peasant class as Gold metal is reserved for royal class and silver is for lord/high rank officer or other similar classes. The tradition was, however, faded out around C19.