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9th October 2021, 09:08 AM | #1 |
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just like Jim wrote on the Pandours “the exact nature of the probably widely assorted weapons used by them cannot of course be determined with any certainty. As many of the men in these units were recruited from Balkan regions and ethnic groups in contingent areas, all supplying thier own weapons, it would be impossible to do anything but speculate”
the same applies on the Balkans for the Bash Bazouks as both of them were recruted from locals, who either wanted to escape poverty, have a decent bed, food and clothing or just were ordered as a buffer at the borders to function as a protection force. Hence still the name "Krajina" derived from kraj = end in the former Yugoslavia, meaning military frontier were Vlachs, Serbs, Montenegrins, Croats and Bosnians lived. And many became Pandours at the Habsburgian side , where on the Ottoman side the same became Bash Bazouks with some Albanians an Greek as well included. Similar like at the Battle of Kosovo, a big day in Serbian history, many Serbs were fighting in service of the Sultan.... That line continues to the "Bosniaken"i.e. the Habsburg Infantery Regiments I -IV which existested from 1882 -1918 (NCOs and other ranks were Muslims, 39.12% were Orthodox and 25.04% were Roman Catholic. The remainder were a mix of Greek Catholics, Jews and Protestants.[1] Regardless of religious faith all other ranks wore the fez. ). So nothing new on the Balkans, same as the Romans used men from the Illyrian regions to fight the Gaul wars. It goes without saying that they all brought and used their own local weapons and also used local black smiths to manufacture weapons. Hence quite some influence from all sides.Like in some earlier post where I showed a bichaq who has Bosnian and Surme characteristics. or one with a painting of a Habsburgian Dalmatian regiment who went into battle with yataghans. So difficult to say sometimes but I would like to hear more from yataghanman and have him elaborate more on his statement as I do want to learn more. Elgood, no disrespect intended, is for me not leading on Yataghans as i am reading now Durdica Petrovic's book "Balkan waepons (VII-XIX) , one of 4 she wrote, which Elgood used to write for his piece on yataghans. By he way Baron Franz von der Trenck was although Prussian an Austrian officer in charge of the pandours, just like many Austrians did on the "Bosniaken" and is a cousin of Friedrich Freiherr von der Trenck,, also world famous because of his adventures. Coming back to the pandours or grenzer versus bash bazouks: both sides were know for their fierce heroic fighting but also some atrocities... Last edited by gp; 10th October 2021 at 12:19 AM. |
9th October 2021, 05:28 PM | #2 |
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Excellent synopsis GP, while the Pandours were indeed a specific group of diverse ethnicities formed into auxiliary forces for the armies of Maria Theresa in the wars of Spanish Succession in mid 18th c.
They were comprised in many cases of border guards in Croatian regions as well as security forces. Other Balkan groups as well as Hungarians also were included. Baron Franz von Trenck, as you note formed these forces, who were assigned to carry out skirmishing as well as acquiring supplies. This unfortunately became ruthless pillaging and atrocious activity which led eventually to the disbandment of these forces and imprisonment of von Trenck. These forces had worn exotic oriental style clothing, and all manner of styles of hair, drooping mustaches, shaved heads with scalp locks etc. and brandished 'exotic' weaponry including the yataghan, and other Eastern sabers. Their terrifying look and demeanor remained profoundly in the minds of Europeans for decades, and their 'exploits' and threat became hubris which was placed on blades of weapons for decades, VIVAT PANDUR. Von Trenck's own yataghan style sword was sold at auction some years back, and had come from the Charles Buttin collection. A note on Robert Elgood's book on Balkan weapons. I recall when he was writing this, most of his emphasis was on the firearms, thus I suspect the yataghan coverage was less than as thorough as his usual work. The study of the yataghan itself is very complex because of its diversity and diffusion through thev expanse of the Ottoman Empire, so relying on a single resource without heavy cross referencing as you suggest , is essential. |
9th October 2021, 05:43 PM | #3 |
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'lil help
GP, reading Elgood's bibliography it seems I am not lucky enough for there to be an English translation of these books. Am I correct? Am I looking for "The Armorers' craft in Metohija"? I couldn't find a reference to the book you mentioned in the "Arms of Greece". Even an edition in a romance language preferably Spanish would be a big help.
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9th October 2021, 11:54 PM | #4 | |
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Quote:
Also sadly publications in or from Balkan got often ignored due to unknown reasons to me. Some literature: Niels A. Andersen, On some Political Gold Yatagans from Algiers and Tunis, Vaabenhistoriske Aarbøger XIII, København 1966, page 159/226. Esin Atil, The Age of Sultan Suleyman the Magnificent, Washington 1987, page 147, 152/153, Maurice Bottet, La Manufacture d'Armes de Versailles, Boutet Directeur Artiste, Paris 1903, Richard F. Burton, The Book of the Sword, London 1884, page 133/134. Anton Dolleczek, Monographie der k. u. k. österr.-ung. Blanken und Handfeuer-Waffen, Wien 1896/Graz 1970, page 32/33. Jacob, Armes blanches page 114/123. Dietrich Menz, Handschar/Yatagan, Deutsches Waffenjournal, Schwäbisch Hall 1967, Nr. 4 page 270/272. Anthony North, Islamic Arms, London 1985, page 24/26 Marija Sercer, Jatagani u Povijesnom Muzeju Hrvatske, Zagreb 1975 Turgay Tezcan, Silahar, Topkapi Sarayi Müzesi, Istanbul 1983, page 32/33, 35. Yatagane aus dem Historischen Museum von Kroatien in Zagreb, Katalog Graz 1976 Vejsil Curcic , Starinsko Oruzje, Sarajevo 1926 Đurđica Petrović; - Balkansko oružje (XII-XIX v.) : izabrane studije ( Balkan weapons XII-XIX) - Dubrovačko oružje u XIV veku ( weapons of Dubrovnik XIV century) Mirsad Sijarcic, Hladno oružje iz Bosne i Hercegovine u arheologiji razvijenog i kasnog srednjeg vijeka (Cold-steel weapons from Bosnia and Herzegovina in the archaeology of the high and late mediaeval period) 2014 Milan Praunsperger. Oružje starih hrvata ( weapons of the old Croats), 1943 Balkans Arms , knives and daggers 18th-19th century by Tarik Kožo - , in 3 languages (!); Bosnian, German and English, 2010 Sarajevo and also the publications in French, German and Austrian papers or books between 1850-1918 I mentioned in my post about Balkan and Bosnian cold weapons, like yataghans, bicaqs, kama's and cakija's like http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ook#post264299 Last edited by gp; 10th October 2021 at 09:52 AM. |
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10th October 2021, 12:30 AM | #5 |
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a nice book to read, not on cold weapons but real literature is by Milos Crnjanski (writer and poet, a Habsburg soldier WWI on the front in Galicia, later diplomat of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia in Berlin ), German title "Panduren", English "Migrations", Serbian "Seobe"
Last edited by gp; 10th October 2021 at 09:18 AM. |
10th October 2021, 08:25 PM | #6 |
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GP, thank you SO very much for these amazing titles and being so helpful with this important literature!
As you note, there is scant information on these Balkan weapons in the west, and many titles in these languages are not only hard to find, but to translate. |
5th April 2022, 10:58 AM | #7 | |
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Quote:
Last edited by gp; 5th April 2022 at 12:04 PM. |
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5th April 2022, 11:00 AM | #8 |
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and the last couple....
happy reading !☼☼☼ |
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