Little old double barreled pistol

Maurice · 31st January 2012, 10:07 AM

Hi,

Can anyone tell me what this is? Which country and which age?
There are signs of a mark on the iron, but impossible to read and photograph....

Thank you in advance for your effort!
Maurice

Fernando K · 31st January 2012, 03:09 PM

Hola:

Me parece que se trata de una pistola belga, de aproximadamente 1860. Las marcas, en todo caso, son del Banco de Pruebas de Lieja (Liege). Los cañones (barrel) son seguramente desenroscables, y si así es, tienen en la boca una muescas ( 4 o 8 ) para in troducir una heramienta y girar los cañones (barrel)

Afectuosamente. Fernando K

Hi

I think it's a Belgian pistol, approximately 1860. The proof marks, in any case, are those of Liege . The barrels are probably the turn off type, and if so, have notches in the muzzles (4 or 8) to introduce a tool to screw them off

Affectionately. Fernando K

M ELEY · 31st January 2012, 03:30 PM

I second Fernando K.'s assessment.The only thing I would add is that these were popular as "boot pistols" in the American Old West, but of course were used throughout Europe as well. Nice piece...

Maurice · 31st January 2012, 04:14 PM

Thank you both for your great help.
Liege is very likely, as I got it from somebody in my neighbourhood.
Liege in Belgium is only an hour drive from where I live.

Kind Regards,
Maurice

SERGIU · 31st January 2012, 04:51 PM

in my region of western Romania-Eastern Hungary this pistols were very popular. Around here they are called "traveler's pistol"(pistol de calator).

Maurice · 31st January 2012, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SERGIU

in my region of western Romania-Eastern Hungary this pistols were very popular. Around here they are called "traveler's pistol"(pistol de calator).

Where that also Belgium pistols which were exported to other countries? Or made in Romania and looked similar?

Maurice

Fernando K · 1st February 2012, 02:04 PM

Hola:

No sé si la pregunta ha sido a mí, pero respondo
Las armas belgas han sido exportadas a todas partes del mundo. Aquí, en Argentina (mi país) se han comprado fusiles copia del "Brown Bess", incluso con punzones ingleses falsos, para hacer creer que eran originales. Incluso producían para la corona británica, llaves de chispa y cañones (barrel),.que después eran punzonados por los ingleses. Han copiado al Enfield, que vendieron a todo el mundo. Brasil tiene un modelo reglamentario, Minie, producido en Bélgica. Han reproducido el "rolling block", etc., etc.,

Afectuosamente. Fernando K

Hi

I do not know if the question has been to me, but respond
Belgian weapons have been exported to all over the world. Here in Argentina (my country) rifles have been purchased copy of "Brown Bess", even with false British punches, to make it appear genuine. Even produced for the British crown, and flintlock guns (barrel). Which were then punched by the British. Been copied to Enfield, which sold around the world. Brazil has a regulatory model, Minie, produced in Belgium. Have reproduced the "rolling block", etc.., ETC.

M ELEY · 1st February 2012, 04:10 PM

Liege was a major manufacturer of many patterns that were shipped world-wide. They made a large bore flintlock pistol that was used by naval personnel as boarding pistols (they lacked a ram-rod, as in the fray of boarding, one shot was all you got!). The boarding pistol of which I speak has the smaller ELG marking, with a V over crown. Time period was 1800-30. Also had a lanyard ring to tie rope to it and your wrist, thus not being washed over the side of the ship in battle. I'm told this same pattern (my pistol, not the one being discussed) also used by mounted British troops in Africa? Perhaps it was the Belgians?? Here is an article on the boarding pistol and Liege-

Don't want to take away from the original thread, just add info on the manufacturer-

(Well, article giving me some trouble on my server!!)
google search 'Dutch-Belgian Navy pistol littlegun' and you'll see it...

M ELEY · 1st February 2012, 04:27 PM

Ahhh, just looked it up-

The smaller ELG on weapons denotes 1810-1840, a much larger ELG is post 1840, and an odd single 'candle-holder' type mark is early Liege, circa 1672-1810. These folks had been making respected weapons for many countries for quite some time.

fernando · 1st February 2012, 04:38 PM

Liege (province) has a great firearms history. They used to make the finest stuff in the XVIII century. Later they were invaded by Napoleon, from whose system rules were established, like the imposing of proof marks. Coming the XIX century (becoming Belgium) production was massified and they started replicating all kinds of models, some under contract and implicit quality rules and other countless pieces without the minimum of standards ... including safety.
When you find a pistol for sale over here, the probability that it has the Liege punctions in it are extremely high.

Maurice · 2nd February 2012, 10:23 AM

Thank you again for your great help!
Now I know it was probably Belgium, I contacted a Belgium friend of mine.
He gave me the same information as you guys, so the mistery is solved to me.

Indeed they seem to be made in larger quantities at that time!

broadaxe · 4th February 2012, 06:56 PM

Just to support my colleagues here: Belgian two-barrells box-lock boot gun. I see them occasionaly even here (Israel) as family heirlooms and field finds (in bad shape). Along the 19th century Belgium was a major supplier of both small and large arms to the region. Would you like to see a Liege 3-ton muzzle loader?

Maurice · 6th February 2012, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by broadaxe

Just to support my colleagues here: Belgian two-barrells box-lock boot gun. I see them occasionaly even here (Israel) as family heirlooms and field finds (in bad shape). Along the 19th century Belgium was a major supplier of both small and large arms to the region. Would you like to see a Liege 3-ton muzzle loader?

Thanks for the confirmation!
Sure, would like to see the muzzle loader!

Rg,
Maurice

Matchlock · 6th February 2012, 12:02 PM

Hi Maurice,

Your little double-barrel percussion pistol belongs to a well-known group of cheap Liège-made Belgian mass production firearms which were used as noise makers to scare off starlings fron vineyards (German: Weinbergpistole). They were almost identically manufactured from the 1870's thru the 1940's and came either single- or double-barreled.

Best,
Michael

broadaxe · 6th February 2012, 12:54 PM

Here you go: this giant is mounted on the wall of old Acre, length is 2.75m, bore is ~230mm.

SERGIU · 6th February 2012, 01:43 PM

Maurice,
No such weapons were ever made in Romania (wallachia or Moldavia) but here in the former austro-hungarian province of Banat we could find a number of this typical boxlock pistols , mainly belgians, but according to marks on the barrels, also german-made pistols and even hungarian. They came cheap, and we found anouncements in local 1880-1890 newspapers for arms dealers who still selled them along with other obsolete small arms like lefaucheux pinfire pepperboxes or one-barrel boxlock pistols. (dealer, Dusan Lazics, Zapolya street in Timisoara, prices: belgian bulldog 5 shots 3,50-5,00 fl.; small velodog revolver engraved 4,00-6,00 fl; boxlock pistol 1,50-2,00 fl)
But all the boxlock pistols in our museum arsenal have octogonal barrels.

fernando · 6th February 2012, 03:51 PM

Speaking of Belgium (Liege) cheap stuff, this is a (non extreme) approach to how far those gun smiths could go in the XVIII century, when it came to a quality compromise.
This pistol, marked "London", could well be an example made in England, as far as quality is concerned, though it is beleived to have been made in Liege, most probably commissioned by a London retailer ... such conclusion being just because it has no British proof marks, which were a must, even in those days; we know that the English were most obedient to such concept, since long before this period. On the other hand, at such time, Liege gunmakers were not (so) obliged to proof mark their production.
This example still falls into the Queen Anne range, although its barrel is not the turn off type, reason why it is provided with a ramrod. Some authors say that this was the type to be loaded with small shot, to use in the dark and at short distance, not missing the target.

.

Matchlock · 6th February 2012, 04:40 PM

Hi 'Nando,

Very nice sample, that one!

I would date it to the 1760's-70, so strictly speaking it does not really belong to the real Queen Anne group any longer, which usually comprises the late 1600's thru the early 1700's. Moreover, the Queen Anne butts are significantly rounded in a bulbous shape.
I realize, of course, that common language use summarizes much later types among the Q.A. type, even at auction houses.

For a better understanding, I attach images of a 'real' Queen Anne pistol of ca. 1710-20; I just googled them.
And a colored engraving of the Queen of ca. 1706-10.

Best,
Michl

fernando · 6th February 2012, 05:11 PM

Thank you for your input, Michl,
I assume you are classifying the Queen Anne concept by its Monarch reign date, but the pistol style went on to about 1780 (John W.Burgoyne, for one)

.
This example certainly contains far more details relative to a Queen Anne specimen than otherwise: the "L" shaped spring, the cannon barrel, the silver decoration style; even a sliding trigger guard to secure the cocking.

fernando · 6th February 2012, 05:21 PM

Hi Michl,
Your post editing came during my last post rehearsal

.
I am looking at over a dozen pictures in work THE QUEEN ANNE PISTOL 1660-1780 by John W. Burgoyne and, either i am extremely short sighted or the example you googled is the most distant thing there is from a Queen Anne pistol

.
Something doesn't fit here; definitely a riddle

.

Matchlock · 6th February 2012, 05:43 PM

Hi 'Nando,

I got used to stick to the definition of - in my mind - one of the best and most knowledgeable firearms historians of the 20th century, and one I learned a lot from: Harold L. Peterson, e.g. The Book of the Gun (1962 and later editions), which still is one of the best and most readable reference works. Unfortunately, the German version was spoilt by a number of cruel translation errors.

As I said, though, judged by the common dealers' and auction houses' standards, your classification, too, is fine. As a principle, however, I am trying to stick to the roots of each term - as well as to the roots of my arms related education.

Best, though typing with a broken right arm still hurting like hell, right on return from the hospital,
Michl

fernando · 6th February 2012, 05:52 PM

Naturaly things are not just black & white and certainly the Queen Anne has a wide range of variants.
I confess i was more worried to sustain my statement that my example belonged to the Queen Anne range.
Here are some examples from Burgoyne book, some visibly looking like mine ... i hope

.

.

fernando · 6th February 2012, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

... Best, though typing with a broken right arm still hurting like hell, right on return from the hospital,
Michl

Oh my friend !!!
So that's why you have been absent for the last couple weeks ?
How come we didn't know what happened before?
I and the forum wish your quick recovery ... and an even quicker pain relief.

.

M ELEY · 7th February 2012, 06:00 AM

Beautiful examples all, and per most definitions I've seen in...yes, auction guides and sites, as well as books (Warren's Rev War Weapons comes to mind), all of the 'type' Queen Anne, being wooden grips either rounded or flat-cheek types embellished with wire, cannon-style barrels typically of twist-off type, dating up to 1780 or so (long after Queen Anne's reign). The smaller ones were carried in many a sea captain's great pockets for shore leave, when ruffians in alleys tried to rob sailors returning to the taverns. The larger types also popular naval weapons (Gilkerson's Boarders Away 2).

31st January 2012, 10:07 AM	#1
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,352	Little old double barreled pistol Hi, Can anyone tell me what this is? Which country and which age? There are signs of a mark on the iron, but impossible to read and photograph.... Thank you in advance for your effort! Maurice Attached Images

31st January 2012, 03:09 PM	#2
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 669	Hola: Me parece que se trata de una pistola belga, de aproximadamente 1860. Las marcas, en todo caso, son del Banco de Pruebas de Lieja (Liege). Los cañones (barrel) son seguramente desenroscables, y si así es, tienen en la boca una muescas ( 4 o 8 ) para in troducir una heramienta y girar los cañones (barrel) Afectuosamente. Fernando K Hi I think it's a Belgian pistol, approximately 1860. The proof marks, in any case, are those of Liege . The barrels are probably the turn off type, and if so, have notches in the muzzles (4 or 8) to introduce a tool to screw them off Affectionately. Fernando K Last edited by fernando; 31st January 2012 at 10:24 PM.

6th February 2012, 12:02 PM	#14
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Maurice, Your little double-barrel percussion pistol belongs to a well-known group of cheap Liège-made Belgian mass production firearms which were used as noise makers to scare off starlings fron vineyards (German: Weinbergpistole). They were almost identically manufactured from the 1870's thru the 1940's and came either single- or double-barreled. Best, Michael Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 6th February 2012 at 02:58 PM.

6th February 2012, 12:54 PM	#15
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 332	Here you go: this giant is mounted on the wall of old Acre, length is 2.75m, bore is ~230mm. Attached Images

6th February 2012, 03:51 PM	#17
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hijacking this thread Speaking of Belgium (Liege) cheap stuff, this is a (non extreme) approach to how far those gun smiths could go in the XVIII century, when it came to a quality compromise. This pistol, marked "London", could well be an example made in England, as far as quality is concerned, though it is beleived to have been made in Liege, most probably commissioned by a London retailer ... such conclusion being just because it has no British proof marks, which were a must, even in those days; we know that the English were most obedient to such concept, since long before this period. On the other hand, at such time, Liege gunmakers were not (so) obliged to proof mark their production. This example still falls into the Queen Anne range, although its barrel is not the turn off type, reason why it is provided with a ramrod. Some authors say that this was the type to be loaded with small shot, to use in the dark and at short distance, not missing the target. . Attached Images

31st January 2012, 03:30 PM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,101	I second Fernando K.'s assessment.The only thing I would add is that these were popular as "boot pistols" in the American Old West, but of course were used throughout Europe as well. Nice piece...

31st January 2012, 04:14 PM	#4
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,352	Thank you both for your great help. Liege is very likely, as I got it from somebody in my neighbourhood. Liege in Belgium is only an hour drive from where I live. Kind Regards, Maurice

31st January 2012, 04:51 PM	#5
SERGIU Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Timisoara, Romania Posts: 32	in my region of western Romania-Eastern Hungary this pistols were very popular. Around here they are called "traveler's pistol"(pistol de calator).

1st February 2012, 02:04 PM	#7
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 669	Hola: No sé si la pregunta ha sido a mí, pero respondo Las armas belgas han sido exportadas a todas partes del mundo. Aquí, en Argentina (mi país) se han comprado fusiles copia del "Brown Bess", incluso con punzones ingleses falsos, para hacer creer que eran originales. Incluso producían para la corona británica, llaves de chispa y cañones (barrel),.que después eran punzonados por los ingleses. Han copiado al Enfield, que vendieron a todo el mundo. Brasil tiene un modelo reglamentario, Minie, producido en Bélgica. Han reproducido el "rolling block", etc., etc., Afectuosamente. Fernando K Hi I do not know if the question has been to me, but respond Belgian weapons have been exported to all over the world. Here in Argentina (my country) rifles have been purchased copy of "Brown Bess", even with false British punches, to make it appear genuine. Even produced for the British crown, and flintlock guns (barrel). Which were then punched by the British. Been copied to Enfield, which sold around the world. Brazil has a regulatory model, Minie, produced in Belgium. Have reproduced the "rolling block", etc.., ETC.

1st February 2012, 04:10 PM	#8
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,101	Liege was a major manufacturer of many patterns that were shipped world-wide. They made a large bore flintlock pistol that was used by naval personnel as boarding pistols (they lacked a ram-rod, as in the fray of boarding, one shot was all you got!). The boarding pistol of which I speak has the smaller ELG marking, with a V over crown. Time period was 1800-30. Also had a lanyard ring to tie rope to it and your wrist, thus not being washed over the side of the ship in battle. I'm told this same pattern (my pistol, not the one being discussed) also used by mounted British troops in Africa? Perhaps it was the Belgians?? Here is an article on the boarding pistol and Liege- Don't want to take away from the original thread, just add info on the manufacturer- (Well, article giving me some trouble on my server!!) google search 'Dutch-Belgian Navy pistol littlegun' and you'll see it...

1st February 2012, 04:27 PM	#9
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,101	Ahhh, just looked it up- The smaller ELG on weapons denotes 1810-1840, a much larger ELG is post 1840, and an odd single 'candle-holder' type mark is early Liege, circa 1672-1810. These folks had been making respected weapons for many countries for quite some time.

1st February 2012, 04:38 PM	#10
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Liege (province) has a great firearms history. They used to make the finest stuff in the XVIII century. Later they were invaded by Napoleon, from whose system rules were established, like the imposing of proof marks. Coming the XIX century (becoming Belgium) production was massified and they started replicating all kinds of models, some under contract and implicit quality rules and other countless pieces without the minimum of standards ... including safety. When you find a pistol for sale over here, the probability that it has the Liege punctions in it are extremely high.

2nd February 2012, 10:23 AM	#11
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,352	Thank you again for your great help! Now I know it was probably Belgium, I contacted a Belgium friend of mine. He gave me the same information as you guys, so the mistery is solved to me. Indeed they seem to be made in larger quantities at that time!

4th February 2012, 06:56 PM	#12
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 332	Just to support my colleagues here: Belgian two-barrells box-lock boot gun. I see them occasionaly even here (Israel) as family heirlooms and field finds (in bad shape). Along the 19th century Belgium was a major supplier of both small and large arms to the region. Would you like to see a Liege 3-ton muzzle loader?

6th February 2012, 01:43 PM	#16
SERGIU Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Timisoara, Romania Posts: 32	Maurice, No such weapons were ever made in Romania (wallachia or Moldavia) but here in the former austro-hungarian province of Banat we could find a number of this typical boxlock pistols , mainly belgians, but according to marks on the barrels, also german-made pistols and even hungarian. They came cheap, and we found anouncements in local 1880-1890 newspapers for arms dealers who still selled them along with other obsolete small arms like lefaucheux pinfire pepperboxes or one-barrel boxlock pistols. (dealer, Dusan Lazics, Zapolya street in Timisoara, prices: belgian bulldog 5 shots 3,50-5,00 fl.; small velodog revolver engraved 4,00-6,00 fl; boxlock pistol 1,50-2,00 fl) But all the boxlock pistols in our museum arsenal have octogonal barrels.

6th February 2012, 04:40 PM	#18
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi 'Nando, Very nice sample, that one! I would date it to the 1760's-70, so strictly speaking it does not really belong to the real Queen Anne group any longer, which usually comprises the late 1600's thru the early 1700's. Moreover, the Queen Anne butts are significantly rounded in a bulbous shape. I realize, of course, that common language use summarizes much later types among the Q.A. type, even at auction houses. For a better understanding, I attach images of a 'real' Queen Anne pistol of ca. 1710-20; I just googled them. And a colored engraving of the Queen of ca. 1706-10. Best, Michl Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 6th February 2012 at 05:08 PM.

6th February 2012, 05:11 PM	#19
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you for your input, Michl, I assume you are classifying the Queen Anne concept by its Monarch reign date, but the pistol style went on to about 1780 (John W.Burgoyne, for one) . This example certainly contains far more details relative to a Queen Anne specimen than otherwise: the "L" shaped spring, the cannon barrel, the silver decoration style; even a sliding trigger guard to secure the cocking.

6th February 2012, 05:21 PM	#20
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Michl, Your post editing came during my last post rehearsal . I am looking at over a dozen pictures in work THE QUEEN ANNE PISTOL 1660-1780 by John W. Burgoyne and, either i am extremely short sighted or the example you googled is the most distant thing there is from a Queen Anne pistol . Something doesn't fit here; definitely a riddle .

6th February 2012, 05:43 PM	#21
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi 'Nando, I got used to stick to the definition of - in my mind - one of the best and most knowledgeable firearms historians of the 20th century, and one I learned a lot from: Harold L. Peterson, e.g. The Book of the Gun (1962 and later editions), which still is one of the best and most readable reference works. Unfortunately, the German version was spoilt by a number of cruel translation errors. As I said, though, judged by the common dealers' and auction houses' standards, your classification, too, is fine. As a principle, however, I am trying to stick to the roots of each term - as well as to the roots of my arms related education. Best, though typing with a broken right arm still hurting like hell, right on return from the hospital, Michl

6th February 2012, 05:52 PM	#22
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Naturaly things are not just black & white and certainly the Queen Anne has a wide range of variants. I confess i was more worried to sustain my statement that my example belonged to the Queen Anne range. Here are some examples from Burgoyne book, some visibly looking like mine ... i hope . . Attached Images

7th February 2012, 06:00 AM	#24
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,101	Beautiful examples all, and per most definitions I've seen in...yes, auction guides and sites, as well as books (Warren's Rev War Weapons comes to mind), all of the 'type' Queen Anne, being wooden grips either rounded or flat-cheek types embellished with wire, cannon-style barrels typically of twist-off type, dating up to 1780 or so (long after Queen Anne's reign). The smaller ones were carried in many a sea captain's great pockets for shore leave, when ruffians in alleys tried to rob sailors returning to the taverns. The larger types also popular naval weapons (Gilkerson's Boarders Away 2).