Dha or Dao?

Flavio · 13th August 2006, 08:51 PM

Hello friends, this is just ended:

http://cgi.ebay.it/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...3D50%26fvi%3D1

How I have to call it? Dha or Dao? Comments are welcome. Thank you

Lew · 13th August 2006, 09:11 PM

Nice one Flavio

I think this is a dao and not a dha but let us wait for the experts to input there opinions.

Lew

Tim Simmons · 13th August 2006, 09:17 PM

I would say it was a dao as the distal end looks as if it is on the heavy side making fencing like moves a little clumsy, where as, even squared off dha are still relatively fast weapons. Just a guess.

Flavio · 13th August 2006, 09:57 PM

Hello Lew and Tim, thankyou. Any idea on the writing? Thanks

katana · 13th August 2006, 10:05 PM

A nice , honest dao...congrats Flavio

Lew · 13th August 2006, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flavio

Hello Lew and Tim, thankyou. Any idea on the writing? Thanks

Here you go Flavio!

Anglo Manipuri War - 1891
During the year 1891 taking the advantage of the quarrels among the princes of Manipur, the Britishers have tried to lay their hand in the matter of administration in Manipur. On a complain laid by Maharajah Surchandra the British planned to capture prince Tikendrajit (brother of Maharajah Kullachandra) the then Senapati of Manipur by force killing a great number of civilians. The effort was a great failure and in retaliation five British officers including the Chief Commissioner of Assam. J.W. Quinton were executed. The British Queen declared war on Manipur. Thus a great war, in which hundreds and thousands of Manipuris fought and sacrificed their lives for the protection of their motherland. The British had defeated Manipur.

Lew

Flavio · 13th August 2006, 11:09 PM

Thank you very much Lew!! But, if the war was in 1891, than the writing is wrong or maybe is the year when the sword was collected by the first western person?

Lew · 13th August 2006, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flavio

Thank you very much Lew!! But, if the war was in 1891, than the writing is wrong or maybe is the year when the sword was collected by the first western person?

Flavio

The war lasted from 1891-93.

KACHIN HILLS 1892-95 - 3 December 1892 to 3 March 1893: Punitive expeditions into the Kachin Hills.

Lew

Flavio · 13th August 2006, 11:24 PM

Ah

, Ok, Thank you very much Lew

RhysMichael · 13th August 2006, 11:30 PM

I agree kachin but I would call it a dha. A couple of years ago I would have called it a dao and placed it as assam. A good find

http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/Images/Image422.jpg

http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/C0002.htm

http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/C0021.htm

http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/C0048.htm

http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/C0055.htm

Andrew · 14th August 2006, 01:45 AM

I agree with JT. A Kachin (Jingpaw) dha. We've discussed these before, I believe.

These are, indeed, very similar to dao of the region, but there are distinctions. A longer, cylindrical handle, a longer/more slender blade with less pronounced flare from forte to the tip, and a two-sided scabbard.

Probably a transitional form between this dao (top) and dha (bottom):

Mark · 14th August 2006, 02:14 AM

Egerton calls these "fighting" dao, as distinguished from the shorter and heavier "dao," in the text, but referring to one illustrated (#205, Fig. 19) he just calls it a sword. There is a Jingpaw word, "nhtu," which means "sword" (according to Leach, Political Systems of Highland Burma) but I don't know if it refers to the longer or shorter version.

I'm a little up in the air at the moment about whether to call these dao or dha, but I favor dha. I have never seen where or why swords from the Naga & Kachin hills were even called "dao," for one thing. "Dha" is a Burmese word, though, so its probably not what a Jingpaw would have called his sword.

Something curious: looking at the tip of the scabbard, the two halves appear mis-matched, but not at the top.

Andrew · 14th August 2006, 02:27 AM

Once again, we find ourselves struggling to put a name to a weapon. I guess we're talking about two things here, really. First, what do we call this thing and, second, where does it fit into our current understanding.

I tend to try and neatly catagorize weapons and give them names that, even if not strictly accurate, allow me to differentiate between forms. Mark is correct: probably the best name for the eBay example is "Kachin sword". But without more information from someone in the region, we're left to our own devices.

Lew · 14th August 2006, 02:28 AM

Mark

The bottom of the scabbard is busted up pretty bad I don't think they are mismatched just broken.

Lew

RhysMichael · 14th August 2006, 02:33 AM

Mark or Andrew, what is the phoenetic for dha. Could it be that it could sound like dao to someone who was raised speaking English. I was just thinking how this could be like the whole Tulwar/Talwar ; Pedang/Peudeung things

Tim Simmons · 14th August 2006, 08:30 AM

I think RhysMicheal may well be right about the same name heard in different dialects add to confusion. One thing I know for sure I have always found a simple pleasure playing with my Dao Dha.

Flavio · 14th August 2006, 10:04 AM

Thank you to all of you gentlemen!!!

Mark, i think that Lew is right, the scabbard seems broken but i will post better pictures when it's arrived (hope soon

). I know tha is quite difficult to say, but in your opinion the writing is "original"? Thanks

Ian · 14th August 2006, 03:25 PM

John:

I don't think dah/dha and dao would be readily confused phoetically. Dha is pronounced like a short "ah" with a "d" in front of it, whereas dao is pronounced is pronounced like the "bough" of a tree, except with a "d" instead of a "b". Dao is of Chinese origin as far as I know, whereas Dha is Burmese -- two dissimilar languages with some overlap. Both mean sword in their respective languages.

Perhaps Philip T. or Scott R. could help further on the Chinese form.

The Thai version Daab/Dahb/Darb is pronounced like "garb" but with a "d" instead of a "g".

Ian.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhysMichael

Mark or Andrew, what is the phoenetic for dha. Could it be that it could sound like dao to someone who was raised speaking English. I was just thinking how this could be like the whole Tulwar/Talwar ; Pedang/Peudeung things

RhysMichael · 14th August 2006, 08:53 PM

Thanks Ian
Thats one problem I really have is figuring out how these words are pronounced in their native language. It particularly true when its a tonal language. Everything I say comes out southern US style

cozun · 16th August 2006, 09:05 PM

Alrighty then, my turn.

The sort of sword or machete, or Dao or Dha (Darb as I say it) that is seen in one of the posts, with the opened sheath, is coming from Birma.
To be be precise it comes from the Northwest of the country. The fabrication, style and shape is similar to the one of the Naga tribe.
However, it seems that it comes from the Rawang tribe which is a minority in the Kachin group.
I sourced a few of the last ones available for sale in Thailand just last week. Only problem: the price.

See attached some pictures of these 2 blades, and an illustration elaborating the story/origin of the people the weapons really belong to.
The illustration are found page 22-25 in:
The vanishing tribes of Birma
Editor - Seven Dials
Writer - Richard K. Diron
ISBN 1 84188 032 9

Now I trust this little pepper and salt is useful info to several of you.

Serge from coZun.

Andrew · 16th August 2006, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cozun

Alrighty then, my turn.

The sort of sword or machete, or Dao or Dha (Darb as I say it) that is seen in one of the posts, with the opened sheath, is coming from Birma.
To be be precise it comes from the Northwest of the country. The fabrication, style and shape is similar to the one of the Naga tribe.
However, it seems that it comes from the Rawang tribe which is a minority in the Kachin group.
I sourced a few of the last ones available for sale in Thailand just last week. Only problem: the price.

See attached some pictures of these 2 blades, and an illustration elaborating the story/origin of the people the weapons really belong to.
The illustration are found page 22-25 in:
The vanishing tribes of Birma
Editor - Seven Dials
Writer - Richard K. Diron
ISBN 1 84188 032 9

Now I trust this little pepper and salt is useful info to several of you.

Serge from coZun.

Hi Serge, welcome.

Diran's book does have some helpful information, and his photos are great (not suprising, as he's a photo-journalist, I believe).

Mark · 17th August 2006, 01:12 PM

Good information, Serge. I've been meaning to get that book for a while, and now I'm sure I will.

I wonder if the red scabbard and red handle have a special significance. It is so often, but not universally, seen. Of the two Kachin dao I have, the higher-quality one has the red scabbard. I also have an old Shan dha the scabbard and handle of of which had been painted red (fairly sloppily, sometimes painting over the silver covering).

RhysMichael · 19th August 2006, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Bowditch

Good information, Serge. I've been meaning to get that book for a while, and now I'm sure I will.

I wonder if the red scabbard and red handle have a special significance. It is so often, but not universally, seen. Of the two Kachin dao I have, the higher-quality one has the red scabbard. I also have an old Shan dha the scabbard and handle of of which had been painted red (fairly sloppily, sometimes painting over the silver covering).
[img]http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/Images/Image21.jpg[/url]

Mark
you may have already seen this but in
ANCIENT SOUTH-EAST ASIAN WARFARE
By H. G. QUARITCH WALES. Ph.D. Litt.D.
LONDON
BERNARD QUARITCH, LTD.
1952
He states in CHAPTER VI SIAM AND BURMA: THE PREPARATIONS

"Lastly I may mention an interesting point of magical symbolism to which Professor Heine-Geldern has drawn my attention: Karl Dohring states, on the authority of La Loubere (op. cit., p. 26), that Siamese soldiers formerly wore red, the colour of the warlike planet Mars which presided over the south, and that is why military officials were on the right (south) side of the king in audience"

I know nothing about the astrology of Siam so I cannot tell you if anyone else confirms what he wrote or not. This author however has several books on Siam including
Towards Angkor in the footsteps of the Indian invaders / by H.G. Quaritch Wales ; with a foreword by Sir FrancisYounghusband and London : G.G. Harrap & Co., Ltd., [1937

and
Ancient Siamese government and administration not sure of the original publisher but Paragon Book Reprint Corp (January 1, 1965)

Mark · 20th August 2006, 03:35 PM

John,

I haven't seen any of those books, though Quarich Wales sounds very familiar. I've probably seen him cited somewhere. More books for my reading list.

Flavio · 24th August 2006, 04:39 PM

And finally the dha is here in my hands

It's huge (overall lenght 90 cm!!) and a very wonderful piece!!!! The blade is laminated (or has a hardened edge

) , but anyway, even if without etching, is quite evident. The handle is a thick piece of bamboo and the belt is gorgeous

13th August 2006, 08:51 PM	#1
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Dha or Dao? Hello friends, this is just ended: http://cgi.ebay.it/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...3D50%26fvi%3D1 How I have to call it? Dha or Dao? Comments are welcome. Thank you

13th August 2006, 09:17 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I would say it was a dao as the distal end looks as if it is on the heavy side making fencing like moves a little clumsy, where as, even squared off dha are still relatively fast weapons. Just a guess. Last edited by Tim Simmons; 13th August 2006 at 09:30 PM.

14th August 2006, 01:45 AM	#11
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	I agree with JT. A Kachin (Jingpaw) dha. We've discussed these before, I believe. These are, indeed, very similar to dao of the region, but there are distinctions. A longer, cylindrical handle, a longer/more slender blade with less pronounced flare from forte to the tip, and a two-sided scabbard. Probably a transitional form between this dao (top) and dha (bottom): Attached Images Last edited by Andrew; 14th August 2006 at 02:10 AM.

17th August 2006, 01:12 PM	#22
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Good information, Serge. I've been meaning to get that book for a while, and now I'm sure I will. I wonder if the red scabbard and red handle have a special significance. It is so often, but not universally, seen. Of the two Kachin dao I have, the higher-quality one has the red scabbard. I also have an old Shan dha the scabbard and handle of of which had been painted red (fairly sloppily, sometimes painting over the silver covering). Last edited by Mark Bowditch; 1st September 2006 at 08:46 PM.

24th August 2006, 04:39 PM	#25
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	And finally the dha is here in my hands It's huge (overall lenght 90 cm!!) and a very wonderful piece!!!! The blade is laminated (or has a hardened edge ) , but anyway, even if without etching, is quite evident. The handle is a thick piece of bamboo and the belt is gorgeous Attached Images

13th August 2006, 09:11 PM	#2
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Nice one Flavio I think this is a dao and not a dha but let us wait for the experts to input there opinions. Lew

13th August 2006, 09:57 PM	#4
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hello Lew and Tim, thankyou. Any idea on the writing? Thanks

13th August 2006, 10:05 PM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	A nice , honest dao...congrats Flavio

13th August 2006, 11:09 PM	#7
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Thank you very much Lew!! But, if the war was in 1891, than the writing is wrong or maybe is the year when the sword was collected by the first western person?

13th August 2006, 11:24 PM	#9
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Ah , Ok, Thank you very much Lew

13th August 2006, 11:30 PM	#10
RhysMichael Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 520	I agree kachin but I would call it a dha. A couple of years ago I would have called it a dao and placed it as assam. A good find http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/Images/Image422.jpg http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/C0002.htm http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/C0021.htm http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/C0048.htm http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/C0055.htm

14th August 2006, 02:14 AM	#12
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Egerton calls these "fighting" dao, as distinguished from the shorter and heavier "dao," in the text, but referring to one illustrated (#205, Fig. 19) he just calls it a sword. There is a Jingpaw word, "nhtu," which means "sword" (according to Leach, Political Systems of Highland Burma) but I don't know if it refers to the longer or shorter version. I'm a little up in the air at the moment about whether to call these dao or dha, but I favor dha. I have never seen where or why swords from the Naga & Kachin hills were even called "dao," for one thing. "Dha" is a Burmese word, though, so its probably not what a Jingpaw would have called his sword. Something curious: looking at the tip of the scabbard, the two halves appear mis-matched, but not at the top.

14th August 2006, 02:27 AM	#13
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Once again, we find ourselves struggling to put a name to a weapon. I guess we're talking about two things here, really. First, what do we call this thing and, second, where does it fit into our current understanding. I tend to try and neatly catagorize weapons and give them names that, even if not strictly accurate, allow me to differentiate between forms. Mark is correct: probably the best name for the eBay example is "Kachin sword". But without more information from someone in the region, we're left to our own devices.

14th August 2006, 02:28 AM	#14
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Mark The bottom of the scabbard is busted up pretty bad I don't think they are mismatched just broken. Lew

14th August 2006, 02:33 AM	#15
RhysMichael Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 520	Mark or Andrew, what is the phoenetic for dha. Could it be that it could sound like dao to someone who was raised speaking English. I was just thinking how this could be like the whole Tulwar/Talwar ; Pedang/Peudeung things

14th August 2006, 08:30 AM	#16
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I think RhysMicheal may well be right about the same name heard in different dialects add to confusion. One thing I know for sure I have always found a simple pleasure playing with my Dao Dha.

14th August 2006, 10:04 AM	#17
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Thank you to all of you gentlemen!!! Mark, i think that Lew is right, the scabbard seems broken but i will post better pictures when it's arrived (hope soon ). I know tha is quite difficult to say, but in your opinion the writing is "original"? Thanks

14th August 2006, 08:53 PM	#19
RhysMichael Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 520	Thanks Ian Thats one problem I really have is figuring out how these words are pronounced in their native language. It particularly true when its a tonal language. Everything I say comes out southern US style

16th August 2006, 09:05 PM	#20
cozun Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Ayutthaya - Thailand - most of the time that is. Posts: 7	The Rawang, a tribe from the Kachin minority group Alrighty then, my turn. The sort of sword or machete, or Dao or Dha (Darb as I say it) that is seen in one of the posts, with the opened sheath, is coming from Birma. To be be precise it comes from the Northwest of the country. The fabrication, style and shape is similar to the one of the Naga tribe. However, it seems that it comes from the Rawang tribe which is a minority in the Kachin group. I sourced a few of the last ones available for sale in Thailand just last week. Only problem: the price. See attached some pictures of these 2 blades, and an illustration elaborating the story/origin of the people the weapons really belong to. The illustration are found page 22-25 in: The vanishing tribes of Birma Editor - Seven Dials Writer - Richard K. Diron ISBN 1 84188 032 9 Now I trust this little pepper and salt is useful info to several of you. Serge from coZun. Attached Images

20th August 2006, 03:35 PM	#24
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	John, I haven't seen any of those books, though Quarich Wales sounds very familiar. I've probably seen him cited somewhere. More books for my reading list.