Punal size and construction

Klop · 25th October 2020, 02:04 PM

Dear members,

This is my first Punal / gunong which was a surpise in size when it arrived, it is really small while the workmanship and materials are fine; elephant ivory, buffalo horn, laminated blade.

In the bulb some of the inlay dots are missing, the middle one on the right hand side seems to be lead or alu and appears to be fixating the tang. Is that a common constuction on these knives? And is this size an abnormality, maybe made for a woman or child?

All thoughts are wellcome.

Kind regards,
Eric.

Ian · 26th October 2020, 11:04 AM

Hi Eric.

Welcome to the Forum. Some dimensions of your gunong would be interesting for discussion. The materials and general condition suggest fairly recent manufacture.

Klop · 26th October 2020, 05:30 PM

Hi Ian,

thanks for your input, here is a picture with a ruler (centimeters), blade is about 9 cm long.

Kind regards,
Eric.

Sajen · 26th October 2020, 11:41 PM

Hi Eric,

I've seen and handled some of these miniature gunongs, I guess they are souvenirs. I have a similar one, see here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...54&postcount=1
Our member Spunjer also has some very nice ones but can't find the thread at the moment.
Here some others in small size from other members: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=gunong & http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=24831

Like said, I think they are souvenirs, I would guess that yours is from around 1940.

Regards,
Detlef

kai · 27th October 2020, 02:36 AM

Hello Detlef,

Those you cite exhibit traditional workmanship - I'd tend to believe that Eric's example is post-WW2, possibly quite recent considering the scabbard and the seemingly fresh resin; also fixing the tang with a metal pin is not traditional and functionally not terribly convincing if done from any soft metal...

Eric, the blade seems to be pretty thin - any measurements?

Regards,
Kai

Klop · 27th October 2020, 05:50 PM

Hello Detlef, thanks for your input, much appreciated.

Hi Kai,

The blade is 2 mm thick/thin - wouldn't expect much more for a miniature if it's not meant as a functional weapon. However I still wouldn't like being cut or stabbed with this toy. In my hands it would be a push dagger with the stem between index and middle finger

I don't think this is as recent as you do, given workmanship, condition of the blade and the nice yellowish patin on the ivory. Detlefs guesstimate makes more sense to me. I cleaned the blade and gave it a hot water "etch" to see the pattern, that is what you're seeing now.

About the metal pin riddle, I'm not sure if the tang really is secured with the metal, my question was if this method is used on these daggers. I didn't expect that, rather tang in resin.

I can see a little bit inside the bulb through the next hole and there I see some of the metal protruding - but I can't see where it goes completely. In any case at this moment it is the only metal dot in the bulb, maybe there have been more in the past. It doesn't come out the other side like a mekugi on japanese swords. As for strength, that is not relevant for a miniature/souvenir but I'd say that if the Japanese have been using small bamboo pegs for centuries on fullsize swords in actual battle then a soft metal pin would be enough to fix the blade on a miniature dagger - again IF it touches the tang at all. I'm starting to think it doesn't and is in fact just another decoration dot.

Some more pics with scabbard deconstructed.

Kind regards,
Eric.

David · 27th October 2020, 06:38 PM

That's a nice little item you have there. I'm pretty much in line with what Detlef stated about dating, though i'm not convinced "souvenir" is definitely the case. While this little dagger isn't a practical weapon it might have some other cultural significance and miniatures of blades have been created around the world in many cultures that aren't necessarily meant to be sold to tourists. It is nicely constructed from good materials and has a laminated blade. And you did a nice job on the renovations. If it were mine i might even consider locating some MOP to fill the empty holes in the hilt.
Early gunongs were indeed rather small daggers. The blades got larger when colonial powers banned swords. They were meant for stealth, to be concealed weapons. But you do need a dagger to be long enough to ensure it does some actually damage and 9cm probably would be more a nuisance than a death blow.
Here is my early gunong. The blade here is a 13.4cm. I think it would be hard (though not impossible) for anything much small to be used as a weapon.

drdavid · 27th October 2020, 09:35 PM

In terms of being an effective weapon I'm afraid this is probably not long enough. My understanding is that 200 mm (8 inches) was determined, by the British military when developing the Mark 4 bayonet, to be the length required to reliably cause lethal damage to an opponent wearing full winter battle dress. Mind you I would still not like to be poked hard in a soft bit by this little punal
DrD

Ian · 28th October 2020, 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

... But you do need a dagger to be long enough to ensure it does some actual damage and 9cm probably would be more a nuisance than a death blow. ...

Hi David, it depends how and where you strike someone--9 cm can be lethal in the right place, as shown by the use of some folders of similar size.

David R · 28th October 2020, 08:27 PM

The Roman army reckoned that 2 inches in the right place did the job.

Klop · 28th October 2020, 09:18 PM

Hi David,

yours is a nice one! indeed more substantial.

I was also thinking of plugging the holes, not sure with what yet. At this moment there's no MOP but it might look good, I'll make some designs or testcases first, nothing irreversable.

And of course I'll be on the lookout for a fullsize version :-) Here in the netherlands we see lots of Indonesian items but little Phillippenes. Btw the seller mislabeled it as knife from Java, he didn't know what it was. Supposedly it has been in his family for some generations but there was nobody left to ask how they got it. Info lost in the sands of time...

Kind regards,
Eric.

kino · 28th October 2020, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drdavid

In terms of being an effective weapon I'm afraid this is probably not long enough. My understanding is that 200 mm (8 inches) was determined, by the British military when developing the Mark 4 bayonet, to be the length required to reliably cause lethal damage to an opponent wearing full winter battle dress. Mind you I would still not like to be poked hard in a soft bit by this little punal
DrD

Winter BDU in the southern Philippines consists of an extra cotton shirt under the Malong, at night.

drdavid · 28th October 2020, 10:37 PM

Gentlemen, you are of course correct, a 1 cm deep laceration can be fatal if it is in the right spot. My comment was,

Quote:

reliably cause lethal damage

in other words lethal without having to hit one of those key spots. Kino, your comment about winter dress in the Philippines is also very pertinent. I have some experience of knife wounds having worked in ED departments, I recall treating 7 stabbings on one particularly busy Saturday night.
cheers
DrD

David · 29th October 2020, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Hi David, it depends how and where you strike someone--9 cm can be lethal in the right place, as shown by the use of some folders of similar size.

Yes Ian, and with the right training i could kill someone with a razor blade and a bit of luck. But i believe what we are trying to determine is whether this is a weapon or a souvenir. As a weapon a 3 1/2 inch blade is not your most effective tool. So i will repeat that it is unlikely that such a small gunong would be produced with killing in mind, even though, yes, it is possible to kill with rather small blades. However, i am still not convinced tourism was the intent here either.

Sajen · 1st November 2020, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Those you cite exhibit traditional workmanship - I'd tend to believe that Eric's example is post-WW2, possibly quite recent considering the scabbard and the seemingly fresh resin; also fixing the tang with a metal pin is not traditional and functionally not terribly convincing if done from any soft metal...

Hello Kai,

Like the others I think that I am correct by my dating, compare the example in question with this two big examples from my collection.

Regards,
Detlef

Sajen · 1st November 2020, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

However, i am still not convinced tourism was the intent here either.

Hello David,

What could be another reason for this small gunongs?

Regards,
Detlef

David · 2nd November 2020, 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello David,

What could be another reason for this small gunongs?

Regards,
Detlef

Well, right off the top of my head it could have been made for a child or there may have been some symbolic or ritual use. We might be able to expand these possibilities with further thought.
I also find myself questioning if a pre-WWII (or any era for that matter) souvenir from the Philippines would be made with ivory and a laminated blade. I know there was tourism in the region at the time, but were they producing souvenirs like this for them?

Rafngard · 2nd November 2020, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

compare the example in question with this two big examples from my collection.

Hello Detlef,

I know you've seen one of these before, but I have near twins of your two examples in my collection.

Have fun,
Leif

Sajen · 4th November 2020, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Well, right off the top of my head it could have been made for a child or there may have been some symbolic or ritual use. We might be able to expand these possibilities with further thought.
I also find myself questioning if a pre-WWII (or any era for that matter) souvenir from the Philippines would be made with ivory and a laminated blade. I know there was tourism in the region at the time, but were they producing souvenirs like this for them?

Hello David,

Yes, could be for a child. On the other hand think to the very early 20th century Sumatran Batak "souvenirs", very well made knives and daggers.
People are inventive when they can make business. We never will know without source for what these little gunongs are made, sadly!

Regards,
Detlef

Sajen · 4th November 2020, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rafngard

I know you've seen one of these before, but I have near twins of your two examples in my collection.

Hi Leif,

Yes have seen it before. The last one is indeed an exact twin of mine, the other one is similar!

Best,
Detlef

25th October 2020, 02:04 PM	#1
Klop Member Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 63	Punal size and construction Dear members, This is my first Punal / gunong which was a surpise in size when it arrived, it is really small while the workmanship and materials are fine; elephant ivory, buffalo horn, laminated blade. In the bulb some of the inlay dots are missing, the middle one on the right hand side seems to be lead or alu and appears to be fixating the tang. Is that a common constuction on these knives? And is this size an abnormality, maybe made for a woman or child? All thoughts are wellcome. Kind regards, Eric. Attached Images

26th October 2020, 05:30 PM	#3
Klop Member Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 63	Hi Ian, thanks for your input, here is a picture with a ruler (centimeters), blade is about 9 cm long. Kind regards, Eric. Attached Images

27th October 2020, 05:50 PM	#6
Klop Member Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 63	Hello Detlef, thanks for your input, much appreciated. Hi Kai, The blade is 2 mm thick/thin - wouldn't expect much more for a miniature if it's not meant as a functional weapon. However I still wouldn't like being cut or stabbed with this toy. In my hands it would be a push dagger with the stem between index and middle finger I don't think this is as recent as you do, given workmanship, condition of the blade and the nice yellowish patin on the ivory. Detlefs guesstimate makes more sense to me. I cleaned the blade and gave it a hot water "etch" to see the pattern, that is what you're seeing now. About the metal pin riddle, I'm not sure if the tang really is secured with the metal, my question was if this method is used on these daggers. I didn't expect that, rather tang in resin. I can see a little bit inside the bulb through the next hole and there I see some of the metal protruding - but I can't see where it goes completely. In any case at this moment it is the only metal dot in the bulb, maybe there have been more in the past. It doesn't come out the other side like a mekugi on japanese swords. As for strength, that is not relevant for a miniature/souvenir but I'd say that if the Japanese have been using small bamboo pegs for centuries on fullsize swords in actual battle then a soft metal pin would be enough to fix the blade on a miniature dagger - again IF it touches the tang at all. I'm starting to think it doesn't and is in fact just another decoration dot. Some more pics with scabbard deconstructed. Kind regards, Eric. Attached Images

27th October 2020, 06:38 PM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,127	That's a nice little item you have there. I'm pretty much in line with what Detlef stated about dating, though i'm not convinced "souvenir" is definitely the case. While this little dagger isn't a practical weapon it might have some other cultural significance and miniatures of blades have been created around the world in many cultures that aren't necessarily meant to be sold to tourists. It is nicely constructed from good materials and has a laminated blade. And you did a nice job on the renovations. If it were mine i might even consider locating some MOP to fill the empty holes in the hilt. Early gunongs were indeed rather small daggers. The blades got larger when colonial powers banned swords. They were meant for stealth, to be concealed weapons. But you do need a dagger to be long enough to ensure it does some actually damage and 9cm probably would be more a nuisance than a death blow. Here is my early gunong. The blade here is a 13.4cm. I think it would be hard (though not impossible) for anything much small to be used as a weapon. Attached Images

26th October 2020, 11:04 AM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,203	Hi Eric. Welcome to the Forum. Some dimensions of your gunong would be interesting for discussion. The materials and general condition suggest fairly recent manufacture.

26th October 2020, 11:41 PM	#4
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,786	Hi Eric, I've seen and handled some of these miniature gunongs, I guess they are souvenirs. I have a similar one, see here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...54&postcount=1 Our member Spunjer also has some very nice ones but can't find the thread at the moment. Here some others in small size from other members: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=gunong & http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=24831 Like said, I think they are souvenirs, I would guess that yours is from around 1940. Regards, Detlef

27th October 2020, 02:36 AM	#5
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Hello Detlef, Those you cite exhibit traditional workmanship - I'd tend to believe that Eric's example is post-WW2, possibly quite recent considering the scabbard and the seemingly fresh resin; also fixing the tang with a metal pin is not traditional and functionally not terribly convincing if done from any soft metal... Eric, the blade seems to be pretty thin - any measurements? Regards, Kai

27th October 2020, 09:35 PM	#8
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 371	In terms of being an effective weapon I'm afraid this is probably not long enough. My understanding is that 200 mm (8 inches) was determined, by the British military when developing the Mark 4 bayonet, to be the length required to reliably cause lethal damage to an opponent wearing full winter battle dress. Mind you I would still not like to be poked hard in a soft bit by this little punal DrD

28th October 2020, 08:27 PM	#10
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	The Roman army reckoned that 2 inches in the right place did the job.

28th October 2020, 09:18 PM	#11
Klop Member Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 63	Hi David, yours is a nice one! indeed more substantial. I was also thinking of plugging the holes, not sure with what yet. At this moment there's no MOP but it might look good, I'll make some designs or testcases first, nothing irreversable. And of course I'll be on the lookout for a fullsize version :-) Here in the netherlands we see lots of Indonesian items but little Phillippenes. Btw the seller mislabeled it as knife from Java, he didn't know what it was. Supposedly it has been in his family for some generations but there was nobody left to ask how they got it. Info lost in the sands of time... Kind regards, Eric.