Interesting odd klewang at eBay

[VVV]

Not sure what this sword is but maybe some of the other forumites have any clues?
It's however not a Latok as described.
I haven't been able to find neither the hilt nor blade in any reference litterature.
Could it be any of the Batak tribes close to Aceh?
Or Visayan?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEDW%3AIT&rd=1

Michael

[Ian]

Michael:

I was following that one too and don't recognize it as an established sword style. Even managed to get in a bid that fell way short. I don't know where it's from but the blade struck me as a modified European saber. The hilt seems to show some Sumatran/Aceh influence, while the terminal "bud" does look a little Visayan.

Maybe a custom assembly for a European living in Sumatra.

Ian.

[kai]

My condolences to all fellow bidders...

I'm stumped, too. Some Parang Nabur blades are similar but I can't recall a similarly extensive fuller. I was thinking more of a Ladieng without the usual broadened tip. The light construction seems to suggest a fighting piece rather than a tool and I hoped the obscure hilt would help to pin down the origin of this beast eventually.

I'm not sure about the blade - a decent etching might reveal more about the forging process. However, is it possible to grind this tip shape out of an European blade without getting a very thin tip where the fuller would pass, Ian?

Regards,
Kai

[VVV]

Ian and Kai,

Thanks for your interesting comments.
Ian, the idea of a rehilted European saber is interesting. Either made for a European or captured/traded by f.i. a Batak who made some personal modifications regarding the hilt.
The hilt is confusing. Very much like a Rudus hilt on the grip but the top part doesn't fit in.
Kai, I also first thought of a Ladieng until I looked closer to the Seller's pictures. On the Nabur I agree on the fuller as well as they are not as slender as this blade.

Michael

[kai]

Hi Michael,

Originally Posted by VVV

On the Nabur I agree on the fuller as well as they are not as slender as this blade.

Well, Fig. 388 in Zonneveld shows a Nabur with also very slender blade. Incidentally, 389 & 390 show a shallow fuller (still quite different from the discussed example) and the latter pic also has a very vaguely bud-like pommel piece. Borneo is a vast area, so poorly known hilt types may be a possibility.

Regards,
Kai

[Ian]

Originally Posted by kai

I'm not sure about the blade - a decent etching might reveal more about the forging process. However, is it possible to grind this tip shape out of an European blade without getting a very thin tip where the fuller would pass, Ian?

Regards,
Kai

Kai:

I don't know, Kai, but that whole tip area looks heavily pitted which suggested to me that it may have been "reworked." The amount of wear there is disproportionate to the rest of the blade. Perhaps others might be able to answer that question. I suppose it would depend how long the original saber was, and how much it may have been shortened, as to how thin the fuller may have been.

Interesting sword.

Ian.

[Bill]

Agree with Kai and the examples cited. May have been originally doubled edged towards the blade tip or modified for definitive warfare; used like the panabas as a clean-up.

[VVV]

Kai,

I retract my earlier comment on the slender blade.
I have one resembling pict 388 - that's even a bit longer - and of course the XXL ones have a more slender blade than the "regular" or very short Naburs.
Thanks also for commenting on the bud. I don't have any of this variation but have handled 390 IRL and "almost" got one at Herman Historica last Spring (Auction 48 - lot 2813 if you want an additional reference picture than the one in van Z). I forgot about it because it's quite rare.
On pict 389 I am a bit sceptical to if it should be called a Parang Nabur if it doesn't have the D-guard, but that's another discussion...

Thanks for all input!

Michael

[RhysMichael]

Just my thoughts. The blade on here strongly reminds me of the blades on Aceh peudeueng peusangan( aka sikin peusangan, sikin pasagan ). Compare these two





Of course the handle is very different. I would like to hear if others see the resemblance in the blade or not


The hilt does have some resemblance to a hulu tapa guda. You can see on on D. Buttins site here : http://old.blades.free.fr/pics/picsw...ang/kle03p.jpg
And the tulip bud is a common motif in Aceh art, many of the other carvings shown also resemble motifs and designs seen in "Hands of Time - Crafts of Aceh" by Barbara Leigh. Of course there are many other places in the region that use similar designs. That being said I think there is a strong case to be made for it being an Aceh sword

[VVV]

Thanks RhysMichael,

Very resembling blade.
So back again to Aceh origin...

Michael

[kai]

Thanks for the reminder, John!

http://home.comcast.net/~jtcrosby/Aceh.html

Originally Posted by RhysMichael

Just my thoughts. The blade on here strongly reminds me of the blades on Aceh peudeueng peusangan( aka sikin peusangan, sikin pasagan ).

That's surely the strongest contender so far - especially the deep fuller is very convincing in my eyes (the tip configuration seems only slightly different). Is this your piece or can you please inquire wether the false edge is sharpened?

Of course the handle is very different.

Could be an ideosyncracy or more likely some "unknown" variety which just didn't make it into the textbooks. Could also be an transplated blade which got rehilted by a different group but this seems quite unlikely given the rarity of this blade variant in the first place...

I would like to hear if others see the resemblance in the blade or not

Sure, good one! I have only seen these blades with the the usual tip more akin to a peudeung/sikin panjang tip.

The hilt does have some resemblance to a hulu tapa guda. You can see on on D. Buttins site here : http://old.blades.free.fr/pics/picsw...ang/kle03p.jpg

There is some semblance (some exmples even have a distinct central protrusion) and, more vaguely, to the hulu cangge gliwang and hulu iku ite. I think this hilt could very well have evolved within northern Sumatra (without having a definite extant ancestor). However, similar hilts pop up far and wide over the archipelago and are not restricted to Sumatra.

That being said I think there is a strong case to be made for it being an Aceh sword

Northern Sumatra seems to be a good guess (including other kingdoms and possibly even some Batak regions).

Regards,
Kai

[RhysMichael]

Is this your piece or can you please inquire wether the false edge is sharpened ?

Yes it is mine. It is not sharpened but it is nearly so. The false edge goes down almost to a sharpe edge. I will post a picture of this later

[Ian]

John:

Agree. Those blades look very similar. Appears to be a distinct type of sword that is very uncommon.

The"bud" at the end of the hilt -- could that be a lotus flower? If so, does that give a clue to which tribal group might have such a motif? I don't recall a lotus symbol being used widely in Isalmic art. More likely Buddhist, but then that does not fit well with Sumatra.

Interesting.

Ian

[RhysMichael]

Originally Posted by Ian

John:


The"bud" at the end of the hilt -- could that be a lotus flower? If so, does that give a clue to which tribal group might have such a motif? I don't recall a lotus symbol being used widely in Isalmic art. More likely Buddhist, but then that does not fit well with Sumatra.

Interesting.

Ian

Ian
Hindu and Buddist influences were noted to be in Aceh as early as the first century AD. From what I can find there is still a great deal of this seen in their arts and crafts. Several things about that and the design fit with this. Barbara Leigh describes the motifs falling into 5 categories:geometric, vegetable life, bird life, other faunal life and islamic motifs. The casusarona seed, lotus , and bamboo playing prominant roles in the vegetative motifs. The way the designs are separated by border into the separate motifs also fit in with what has been called "a grammer of design", is a characteristic in Indonesian art. Thats a great thought about the style pinning it down to a certain tribal group. That may take someone on the ground there to find out. I do not know of any references that would give us this information. But I have found few that give much specific information on these swords.
Here are the pictures of the sword tip. The blade is positioned edge up false edge down.





As to this syle of blade here is one that Therion used to have I do not know if he still does
http://www.therionarms.com/pictures/sikkin.jpg
This one is in the KIT, in Holland
http://img32.photobucket.com/albums/...peudeueng1.bmp

Again to whoever got this sword congratualtions on a good sword at a very good price. I would have gone much above this if it was not Christmas and all my funds tied up for that.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by RhysMichael

Ian
Hindu and Buddist influences were noted to be in Aceh as early as the first century AD. From what I can find there is still a great deal of this seen in their arts and crafts. Several things about that and the design fit with this. Barbara Leigh describes the motifs falling into 5 categories:geometric, vegetable life, bird life, other faunal life and islamic motifs. The casusarona seed, lotus , and bamboo playing prominant roles in the vegetative motifs. The way the designs are separated by border into the separate motifs also fit in with what has been called "a grammer of design", is a characteristic in Indonesian art. Thats a great thought about the style pinning it down to a certain tribal group. That may take someone on the ground there to find out. I do not know of any references that would give us this information. But I have found few that give much specific information on these swords.
Here are the pictures of the sword tip. The blade is positioned edge up false edge down.





As to this syle of blade here is one that Therion used to have I do not know if he still does
http://www.therionarms.com/pictures/sikkin.jpg
This one is in the KIT, in Holland
http://img32.photobucket.com/albums/...peudeueng1.bmp

Again to whoever got this sword congratualtions on a good sword at a very good price. I would have gone much above this if it was not Christmas and all my funds tied up for that.

This is a thread I missed. Great stuff, John. Thanks.