An Arab Hijaz Dagger in Ottoman Scabbard?

CharlesS · 14th August 2016, 08:39 PM

Here is a long Arabian jambiya style dagger that looks to be of the type from western Arabia, Hijaz. The blade style and hilt quite fit the style from that area, but the blade is surprisingly of wootz, though of lower quality.

The scabbard looks Ottoman in style and motifs, and has a brass wire woven seam, typical to Ottoman scabbards. The mounts are silver alloy.

Being that the Arabian peninsula was at least nominally part of the Ottoman Empire, these style combinations are not particularly surprising, but I find the style combination with the rather are Arabian wootz blade most interesting. Note also the belt loop that seems to dictate that the brass woven seam side of the scabbard is worn to the outside.

Would appreciate any input about this piece, and whether or not opinions agree or differ from mine regarding the dagger's origin.

Dimensions:
Overall: 26in.
Blade 19in.

mariusgmioc · 14th August 2016, 09:49 PM

Hello,

I have some supicions about the "wootz." Have seen very simiar patterns and colouring on a faked wootz Indian Khanjar.

Better photos would be welcomed, but still doesn't look like genuine wootz.

kahnjar1 · 14th August 2016, 10:22 PM

Hi Charles,
Very nice piece by the look of it. Not sure about origin though.......
Re the "belt loop"....this is IMHO unusual for a Hijazi Dharia style dagger as they are usually mounted horizontally or at least semi horizontally on the belt, by at least 3 or more loops on the back of the scabbard. The style here would suggest more of a vertical hanging attachment. As a matter of interest they are usually mounted with the hilt to the left side of the body (see pics) so the loop on yours is probably on the correct side, though I do wonder about the stitching being visible. This would normally be at the back, as on other leather dressed Dharias I have seen.
Stu

Kubur · 14th August 2016, 10:37 PM

Hi Charles,
Just a beauty.
One photo sometimes says more than words.
It's an Ottoman jambiya in Istanbul, probably from Hidjaz.
Best,
Kubur

CharlesS · 14th August 2016, 10:55 PM

Kubur: Thanks so much! What a helpful photograph!

Marius: There is nothing about this wootz that is faked. It's just a different sort of wootz than we more commonly see and not nearly as attractive as other sorts IMHO, but wootz, nonetheless.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 14th August 2016, 11:52 PM

I agree there is no faking on this weapon ...

Actually I thought it more like a weapon I saw at http://atkinson-swords.com/collectio...previous-photo which shows a Sabiki Dharia. It occurred to me that Ottoman style had a flat top pommel.

A.alnakkas · 15th August 2016, 12:13 AM

I really like this one and think it found a good home. This style is called magfal in the modern days and generally comes in full silver dress. This is an older version of it and what I find interesting in it is the very obvious Ottoman influence. Taif is one of the places where this style is worn often (depending on tribe) and Taif was for a good while, under Ottoman influence :-) so nice, you have a pretty good old one.

Kubur · 15th August 2016, 12:19 AM

A last one for the road, with a good blade too...

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 15th August 2016, 01:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

A last one for the road, with a good blade too...

Superb pictures Kubur; Thank you very much..

ariel · 15th August 2016, 01:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

I agree there is no faking on this weapon ...

Actually I thought it more like a weapon I saw at http://atkinson-swords.com/collectio...previous-photo which shows a Sabiki Dharia. It occurred to me that Ottoman style had a flat top pommel.

Regretfully, 4 out of 5 kindjals in that collection are very, very modern replicas. Not sure about the fifth: need better glasses.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 15th August 2016, 04:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Regretfully, 4 out of 5 kindjals in that collection are very, very modern replicas. Not sure about the fifth: need better glasses.

Actually I think you have a point although I thought the Yemeni Tuza and the Sabiki Dharia looked ok...but it was a long day ... Maybe I need glasses too

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 15th August 2016, 04:47 AM

A.alnakkas · 15th August 2016, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

I'd recommend Steve Gracie's book called Jambiya. Its quite educational about items from Hijaz and Yemen.

kahnjar1 · 15th August 2016, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

I'd recommend Steve Gracie's book called Jambiya. Its quite educational about items from Hijaz and Yemen.

I "second" that!! Great book.

A.alnakkas · 17th August 2016, 11:40 PM

Here is another lovely example:

http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=4655

Kubur · 18th August 2016, 11:34 AM

Nice example!

Look at this link too

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ottoman+dharia

Kubur · 5th September 2016, 11:00 PM

The same here sold

http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/photos.php?id=3859

DaveA · 2nd January 2017, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

I agree there is no faking on this weapon ...

Actually I thought it more like a weapon I saw at http://atkinson-swords.com/collectio...previous-photo which shows a Sabiki Dharia. It occurred to me that Ottoman style had a flat top pommel.

The URL above is incorrect. You can find the Sabiki Dharias listed in this page: http://atkinson-swords.com/collectio...an-penninsula/

DaveS · 3rd January 2017, 03:06 AM

Charles: It looks like Syrian Wootz (Sham) to me............Dave.

Battara · 3rd January 2017, 10:03 PM

A weird thought (I know shocking...

) but I was looking a those silver "fowers", and was wondering if there might have been a little Indian influence in this. The area of origin does trade with India...............

14th August 2016, 08:39 PM	#1
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	An Arab Hijaz Dagger in Ottoman Scabbard? Here is a long Arabian jambiya style dagger that looks to be of the type from western Arabia, Hijaz. The blade style and hilt quite fit the style from that area, but the blade is surprisingly of wootz, though of lower quality. The scabbard looks Ottoman in style and motifs, and has a brass wire woven seam, typical to Ottoman scabbards. The mounts are silver alloy. Being that the Arabian peninsula was at least nominally part of the Ottoman Empire, these style combinations are not particularly surprising, but I find the style combination with the rather are Arabian wootz blade most interesting. Note also the belt loop that seems to dictate that the brass woven seam side of the scabbard is worn to the outside. Would appreciate any input about this piece, and whether or not opinions agree or differ from mine regarding the dagger's origin. Dimensions: Overall: 26in. Blade 19in. Attached Images Last edited by CharlesS; 14th August 2016 at 09:04 PM.

14th August 2016, 10:22 PM	#3
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	Hi Charles, Very nice piece by the look of it. Not sure about origin though....... Re the "belt loop"....this is IMHO unusual for a Hijazi Dharia style dagger as they are usually mounted horizontally or at least semi horizontally on the belt, by at least 3 or more loops on the back of the scabbard. The style here would suggest more of a vertical hanging attachment. As a matter of interest they are usually mounted with the hilt to the left side of the body (see pics) so the loop on yours is probably on the correct side, though I do wonder about the stitching being visible. This would normally be at the back, as on other leather dressed Dharias I have seen. Stu Attached Images

14th August 2016, 10:37 PM	#4
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi Charles, Just a beauty. One photo sometimes says more than words. It's an Ottoman jambiya in Istanbul, probably from Hidjaz. Best, Kubur Attached Images

15th August 2016, 12:19 AM	#8
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	A last one for the road, with a good blade too... Attached Images

5th September 2016, 11:00 PM	#17
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	The same here sold http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/photos.php?id=3859 Attached Images

14th August 2016, 09:49 PM	#2
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Hello, I have some supicions about the "wootz." Have seen very simiar patterns and colouring on a faked wootz Indian Khanjar. Better photos would be welcomed, but still doesn't look like genuine wootz.

14th August 2016, 10:55 PM	#5
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Kubur: Thanks so much! What a helpful photograph! Marius: There is nothing about this wootz that is faked. It's just a different sort of wootz than we more commonly see and not nearly as attractive as other sorts IMHO, but wootz, nonetheless.

14th August 2016, 11:52 PM	#6
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	I agree there is no faking on this weapon ... Actually I thought it more like a weapon I saw at http://atkinson-swords.com/collectio...previous-photo which shows a Sabiki Dharia. It occurred to me that Ottoman style had a flat top pommel.

15th August 2016, 12:13 AM	#7
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	I really like this one and think it found a good home. This style is called magfal in the modern days and generally comes in full silver dress. This is an older version of it and what I find interesting in it is the very obvious Ottoman influence. Taif is one of the places where this style is worn often (depending on tribe) and Taif was for a good while, under Ottoman influence :-) so nice, you have a pretty good old one.

15th August 2016, 04:47 AM	#12
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408

17th August 2016, 11:40 PM	#15
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Here is another lovely example: http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=4655

18th August 2016, 11:34 AM	#16
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Nice example! Look at this link too http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ottoman+dharia

3rd January 2017, 03:06 AM	#19
DaveS Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 327	Charles: It looks like Syrian Wootz (Sham) to me............Dave.

3rd January 2017, 10:03 PM	#20
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,220	A weird thought (I know shocking... ) but I was looking a those silver "fowers", and was wondering if there might have been a little Indian influence in this. The area of origin does trade with India...............