Samoan question

Tim Simmons · 3rd May 2011, 10:59 PM

I just want to ask and do not expect any reply. Why is the Nifo Oti thing if that is the right spelling. The version with the teeth. Is it always said to be inspired by a blubber knife? when to me it could look more like the arms of a Praying Mantis and be of Samoan origin and nothing to do with whalers. I know I am just a sod kicker but why sould we always trust the dodgy and predudice and colonial boosting oppinions of the past. Do blubber knives have teeth.

katana · 3rd May 2011, 11:56 PM

Hi Tim

,
according to Pitt Rivers they were modelled on billhooks....

http://webprojects.prm.ox.ac.uk/arms...s/1899.62.718/

Hope this helps

Kind Regards David

Tim Simmons · 4th May 2011, 09:45 PM

Hello David,

I have seen that before. I know this sounds so pompous of me but, what they say is not necessarly the end of hypothiesis on the form and origin. Billhooks do not have teeth either. I will take some pictures to show why I question the current understanding.

fearn · 5th May 2011, 06:00 AM

Hi Tim,

A couple of suggestions. The teeth are functional in that they concentrate the force of the blow. Here's a couple of suggestions for what inspired them:

1) sharks. This should be self-explanatory. This is probably the primary inspiration for the teeth, IMHO.

2) Sawfish bills. I find no mention of sawfish native to Samoa, but these animals apparently do get to Vanuatu, or 1100 nautical miles away, and sawfish bills are weapons all along the western edge of the Pacific

3) Kiribati shark-toothed weapons. Kiribati is about 1200 nautical miles from Samoa, and I *think* they occasionally got into western Polynesia.

Best,

F

ausjulius · 5th May 2011, 07:14 AM

it is based off a weapon from the 19th century produced in polynesia made from very long hack blad,
these have a hook on the back for hanging the item and for moving chopped materials and pulling brush out of the way... the same style of knife is still very popular in the apls with or without the hook the cutitng edge is not on the hooked side and the hook is not a broad beak like a billhook but more like a steel rod..
swiss arm used to issue them both with the hook and without..

interestingly i saw one the other day in decent condition sell for 100$
http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...T#ht_500wt_922

katana · 5th May 2011, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Hello David,

I have seen that before. I know this sounds so pompous of me but, what they say is not necessarly the end of hypothiesis on the form and origin. Billhooks do not have teeth either. I will take some pictures to show why I question the current understanding.

Due to the fact there were no metal bladed implements ....the main cutting edges were often formed using animal teeth, fixing stone shards (like teeth) etc. I'm wondering whether the 'toothed' version is simply the 'native' interpretation ...or perhaps a symbolic 'counter version' (a way of obtaining the 'power' of the technically advanced 'visitors' by copying ?)

fearn · 5th May 2011, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ausjulius

it is based off a weapon from the 19th century produced in polynesia made from very long hack blad,
these have a hook on the back for hanging the item and for moving chopped materials and pulling brush out of the way... the same style of knife is still very popular in the apls with or without the hook the cutitng edge is not on the hooked side and the hook is not a broad beak like a billhook but more like a steel rod..
swiss arm used to issue them both with the hook and without..

interestingly i saw one the other day in decent condition sell for 100$
http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...T#ht_500wt_922

Which came first? I thought those blades you describe imitated the nifu oti, not vice versa. That design is currently used in the Samoan fire knife.

I'd also add that, if you're looking for animal inspiration, a pig's tusk is a reasonable facsimile for that front hook on the nifu oti, but I could just as easily believe that it was originally inspired by a bend in a branch. Someone may have thought, "wow, that looks good for adding weight on the front and hooking things out of the way. Hmmmmm."

Best,

F

VANDOO · 5th May 2011, 06:48 PM

UNFORTUNATELY WHEN ANOTHER CULTURE LOOKS AT THE TOOLS, WEAPONS OR ARTEFACTS OF A NEW CULTURE THEY OFTEN TRY TO ASSOCIATE IT WITH SOMETHING THEY ARE FAMILIAR WITH. SUCH AS THE CLUB LOOKS LIKE A GUNSTOCK, BILLHOOK OR WHALERS FLENCING TOOL, NOT TAKEING INTO CONSIDERATION THE NATIVE PEOPLE HAVE NEVER SEEN EITHER ONE.
THE ISLANDERS NO DOUBT TOOK THEIR INSPIRATION FROM SOMETHING THEY SAW WHERE THEY LIVED.THERE ARE MANY FORMS IN NATURE TO DRAW FROM, MANY FORMS ARE SAID IN NATIVE TRADITION TO HAVE ORIGINATED FROM FLOWERS AND FRUIT AS WELL AS THE ANIMAL KINGDOM. SEE PICTURES OF 3 SPIKEY FLOWERS FOUND IN THE ISLANDS.
SEVERAL CLUB PICTURES ONE WITH A EXTREME BACK SPIKE, I SUSPECT THE BACK SPIKE WAS USED FOR SOME CEREMONIAL PURPOSE AS IT DID NOT ADD TO THE EFFECTIVE USE OF A WAR CLUB. PERHAPS FOR HANGING, DANCING OR EVEN CARRING A TAILSMAN OR HEAD OF A FALLEN ENEMY. NOTE I DON'T REMEMBER READING IF SAMOANS TOOK HEADS

ONE PICTURE IS OF 3 TOOTHED FORMS OF SAMOAN CLUBS AND ANOTHER IS AN EARLY EXAMPLE WITH NO SPIKES A SAILOR WOULD NO DOUBT HAVE THOUGHT IT LOOKED LIKE A PEG LEG.

THE SECOND CLUB PICTURE THE ONE WITH NO SPIKES REMINDS ME OF THE CEREMONIAL STILTS CARVED AND USED IN THE MARQUESAS NOT A PEG LEG.
THE FIRE KNIFE DANCES DID EVOLVE FROM THE CLUB AND SUBSEQUENT LONG KNIFE WITH TRADITIONAL BACKSPIKE. I PERSONALLY BELIEVE THE CLUBS WERE ALREADY IN USE BEFORE OUTSIDE CONTACT WAS MADE WITH EUROPEANS.

Tim Simmons · 5th May 2011, 11:04 PM

Barry, those pictures from ebay, Samoan clubs from a German publication { you always find really good publications in German rather like there cars

} I think they rather kill the the idea that they orginate outside of Samoan culture. Aspects I see on many examples seem so not like a bilhook or blubber knife. For one is the teeth, also with the "Nifo oti" on many, one side is convex the other concave and along with generally massive size I just do not really see a knife form. The pictures show this although there is a convergance of concave shaping to the hook tip. The picture of an example Barry has post from a museum in Israel is dispalying the concave side, which is always on the same side of the club.

fearn · 5th May 2011, 11:16 PM

Vandoo,

I won't argue that gingers are Samoan (see attached pic for wild ginger), but the Helliconias came from South America and the Bird of Paradise from South Africa. The Pacific Islands have a lot of invasives and things that people have planted. The fact that you see it there now does not mean it was there 200 years ago.

Best,

F

Source: pic from http://www.terragalleria.com/parks/n....npsa3808.html

ausjulius · 6th May 2011, 03:46 AM

i think the wooden club shape came first and some enterprising capatilist noticed they looke dlike some forms of billhook and hack knife in europe purchased these and sold them as weapons further altering the club designs to more mimmic the new weapons form.. but surly the hooked club has been around in most polynesian cultures for a 1000snd years

Billman · 18th May 2011, 06:02 PM

Again it is probably just a coincidence, but one based on the same principles of what we would today call ergonomic design, i.e. form follows function...

There are similarly shaped billhooks found in England, Germany and Austria with a hook on the back to pull the next piece of wood towards the user. None of these were intended as weapons, but similar designs became incorporated into medieval pole arms in order to pull a rider from his horse...

African ceremonial weapons shaped like billhooks can also be found, and also ceremonial and status items such as the Mangbetu trombash, which to all intents and puposes looks and feels like a billhook - but everyone states they are weapons (throwing knives) or ceremonial/status/moneraty items, not tools (but I would be interested to know what tools they cut wood with, harvested corn, or made their huts with..) - sorry I digress...

I have noticed the similarities between the wooden Samoan and other cultures' clubs and billhooks - but I guess most European ethnologists were familiar with the billhook, and thus said they were 'billhook shaped' and not copied from a European billhook...

Billman · 18th May 2011, 06:24 PM

The Pitt Rivers Museum's explanation is however, very plausible - but curious that the form with a rearward facing back hook is not common in English billhooks, except for the London Block Hook and the Hertfordshire billhook.... And would these have been taken on board ship - or was the unbiquitous cutlass/machete more common???

What is really need is to confirm if this style of tool/weapon existed before the widespread introduction of trade goods, such as edged tools.... Beads and glass were always a much cheaper option....

Another possible trade area are the edged weapons of South East Asia - it is possible these were seen long before the white european colonists arrived... Some of these (e.g. from Indonesia and Malaysia) do also have hooks on the back....

And not forgetting the whalbone, wooden and stone clubs and cutting tools from other parts of Polynesia...

Billman · 18th May 2011, 06:43 PM

Chicken or egg??? Which came first.....

http://webprojects.prm.ox.ac.uk/arms...ia/1928.59.21/ or http://webprojects.prm.ox.ac.uk/arms...s/1899.62.718/

PRM state: " Since there both steel and wooden machetes and cutlasses elsewhere in western Polynesia during the 19th century, it has been suggested that there were not enough steel billhook blades to supply demand, so copies were carved out of wood. There is on display in the Museum a fine example of one such wooden nifo’oti."

The steel example is late 19th century, by Joseph Beal of Sheffield - curious it is not an English billhook shape... and I have never seen another similar blade, nor even a billhook by them. Was it made for export to Europe or as trade goods for use elsewhere in the world... It seems of exceptional quality for trade goods, and I would expect to have seen others if it was made as such.... Or was it fashioned by a local blacksmith from a cut down naval cutlass to resemble the local wooden weaponry.... (Assuming that after the introduction of colonial rule, the European's would have also introduced iron working techiques, and supplied bar stock as required)

Note the only J Beal I can trace was a cutler, not an edge tool maker - a cut-throat razor stamped J&J Beal can be found at: http://straightrazorplace.com/razors...lp-please.html - it is possible they made trade goods, but more likely that they made naval cutlasses or officers' swords (c.f. Wilkinson Sword do today)

Updated: they made Ashanti Slavers swords, a form of cutlass: http://faganarms.com/weapons_arms_ar...l/weapons.aspx so it is possible they made other weaponry... Update 2: Yes they did: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/printt...p?t=7034&pp=40 as well as pocket knives... and Machetes: http://www.nzaaawgtn.org.nz/a08_12511300.asp

3rd May 2011, 10:59 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Samoan question I just want to ask and do not expect any reply. Why is the Nifo Oti thing if that is the right spelling. The version with the teeth. Is it always said to be inspired by a blubber knife? when to me it could look more like the arms of a Praying Mantis and be of Samoan origin and nothing to do with whalers. I know I am just a sod kicker but why sould we always trust the dodgy and predudice and colonial boosting oppinions of the past. Do blubber knives have teeth.

5th May 2011, 06:00 AM	#4
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Tim, A couple of suggestions. The teeth are functional in that they concentrate the force of the blow. Here's a couple of suggestions for what inspired them: 1) sharks. This should be self-explanatory. This is probably the primary inspiration for the teeth, IMHO. 2) Sawfish bills. I find no mention of sawfish native to Samoa, but these animals apparently do get to Vanuatu, or 1100 nautical miles away, and sawfish bills are weapons all along the western edge of the Pacific 3) Kiribati shark-toothed weapons. Kiribati is about 1200 nautical miles from Samoa, and I think they occasionally got into western Polynesia. Best, F Last edited by fearn; 5th May 2011 at 11:12 PM.

5th May 2011, 06:48 PM	#8
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	UNFORTUNATELY WHEN ANOTHER CULTURE LOOKS AT THE TOOLS, WEAPONS OR ARTEFACTS OF A NEW CULTURE THEY OFTEN TRY TO ASSOCIATE IT WITH SOMETHING THEY ARE FAMILIAR WITH. SUCH AS THE CLUB LOOKS LIKE A GUNSTOCK, BILLHOOK OR WHALERS FLENCING TOOL, NOT TAKEING INTO CONSIDERATION THE NATIVE PEOPLE HAVE NEVER SEEN EITHER ONE. THE ISLANDERS NO DOUBT TOOK THEIR INSPIRATION FROM SOMETHING THEY SAW WHERE THEY LIVED.THERE ARE MANY FORMS IN NATURE TO DRAW FROM, MANY FORMS ARE SAID IN NATIVE TRADITION TO HAVE ORIGINATED FROM FLOWERS AND FRUIT AS WELL AS THE ANIMAL KINGDOM. SEE PICTURES OF 3 SPIKEY FLOWERS FOUND IN THE ISLANDS. SEVERAL CLUB PICTURES ONE WITH A EXTREME BACK SPIKE, I SUSPECT THE BACK SPIKE WAS USED FOR SOME CEREMONIAL PURPOSE AS IT DID NOT ADD TO THE EFFECTIVE USE OF A WAR CLUB. PERHAPS FOR HANGING, DANCING OR EVEN CARRING A TAILSMAN OR HEAD OF A FALLEN ENEMY. NOTE I DON'T REMEMBER READING IF SAMOANS TOOK HEADS ONE PICTURE IS OF 3 TOOTHED FORMS OF SAMOAN CLUBS AND ANOTHER IS AN EARLY EXAMPLE WITH NO SPIKES A SAILOR WOULD NO DOUBT HAVE THOUGHT IT LOOKED LIKE A PEG LEG. THE SECOND CLUB PICTURE THE ONE WITH NO SPIKES REMINDS ME OF THE CEREMONIAL STILTS CARVED AND USED IN THE MARQUESAS NOT A PEG LEG. THE FIRE KNIFE DANCES DID EVOLVE FROM THE CLUB AND SUBSEQUENT LONG KNIFE WITH TRADITIONAL BACKSPIKE. I PERSONALLY BELIEVE THE CLUBS WERE ALREADY IN USE BEFORE OUTSIDE CONTACT WAS MADE WITH EUROPEANS. Attached Images

5th May 2011, 11:04 PM	#9
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Barry, those pictures from ebay, Samoan clubs from a German publication { you always find really good publications in German rather like there cars } I think they rather kill the the idea that they orginate outside of Samoan culture. Aspects I see on many examples seem so not like a bilhook or blubber knife. For one is the teeth, also with the "Nifo oti" on many, one side is convex the other concave and along with generally massive size I just do not really see a knife form. The pictures show this although there is a convergance of concave shaping to the hook tip. The picture of an example Barry has post from a museum in Israel is dispalying the concave side, which is always on the same side of the club. Attached Images

5th May 2011, 11:16 PM	#10
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Vandoo, I won't argue that gingers are Samoan (see attached pic for wild ginger), but the Helliconias came from South America and the Bird of Paradise from South Africa. The Pacific Islands have a lot of invasives and things that people have planted. The fact that you see it there now does not mean it was there 200 years ago. Best, F Source: pic from http://www.terragalleria.com/parks/n....npsa3808.html Attached Images

3rd May 2011, 11:56 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Tim , according to Pitt Rivers they were modelled on billhooks.... http://webprojects.prm.ox.ac.uk/arms...s/1899.62.718/ Hope this helps Kind Regards David

4th May 2011, 09:45 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Hello David, I have seen that before. I know this sounds so pompous of me but, what they say is not necessarly the end of hypothiesis on the form and origin. Billhooks do not have teeth either. I will take some pictures to show why I question the current understanding.

5th May 2011, 07:14 AM	#5
ausjulius Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: musorian territory Posts: 422	it is based off a weapon from the 19th century produced in polynesia made from very long hack blad, these have a hook on the back for hanging the item and for moving chopped materials and pulling brush out of the way... the same style of knife is still very popular in the apls with or without the hook the cutitng edge is not on the hooked side and the hook is not a broad beak like a billhook but more like a steel rod.. swiss arm used to issue them both with the hook and without.. interestingly i saw one the other day in decent condition sell for 100$ http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...T#ht_500wt_922

6th May 2011, 03:46 AM	#11
ausjulius Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: musorian territory Posts: 422	i think the wooden club shape came first and some enterprising capatilist noticed they looke dlike some forms of billhook and hack knife in europe purchased these and sold them as weapons further altering the club designs to more mimmic the new weapons form.. but surly the hooked club has been around in most polynesian cultures for a 1000snd years

18th May 2011, 06:02 PM	#12
Billman Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 129	Again it is probably just a coincidence, but one based on the same principles of what we would today call ergonomic design, i.e. form follows function... There are similarly shaped billhooks found in England, Germany and Austria with a hook on the back to pull the next piece of wood towards the user. None of these were intended as weapons, but similar designs became incorporated into medieval pole arms in order to pull a rider from his horse... African ceremonial weapons shaped like billhooks can also be found, and also ceremonial and status items such as the Mangbetu trombash, which to all intents and puposes looks and feels like a billhook - but everyone states they are weapons (throwing knives) or ceremonial/status/moneraty items, not tools (but I would be interested to know what tools they cut wood with, harvested corn, or made their huts with..) - sorry I digress... I have noticed the similarities between the wooden Samoan and other cultures' clubs and billhooks - but I guess most European ethnologists were familiar with the billhook, and thus said they were 'billhook shaped' and not copied from a European billhook... Attached Images

18th May 2011, 06:24 PM	#13
Billman Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 129	The Pitt Rivers Museum's explanation is however, very plausible - but curious that the form with a rearward facing back hook is not common in English billhooks, except for the London Block Hook and the Hertfordshire billhook.... And would these have been taken on board ship - or was the unbiquitous cutlass/machete more common??? What is really need is to confirm if this style of tool/weapon existed before the widespread introduction of trade goods, such as edged tools.... Beads and glass were always a much cheaper option.... Another possible trade area are the edged weapons of South East Asia - it is possible these were seen long before the white european colonists arrived... Some of these (e.g. from Indonesia and Malaysia) do also have hooks on the back.... And not forgetting the whalbone, wooden and stone clubs and cutting tools from other parts of Polynesia... Attached Images

18th May 2011, 06:43 PM	#14
Billman Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 129	Chicken or egg??? Which came first..... http://webprojects.prm.ox.ac.uk/arms...ia/1928.59.21/ or http://webprojects.prm.ox.ac.uk/arms...s/1899.62.718/ PRM state: " Since there both steel and wooden machetes and cutlasses elsewhere in western Polynesia during the 19th century, it has been suggested that there were not enough steel billhook blades to supply demand, so copies were carved out of wood. There is on display in the Museum a fine example of one such wooden nifo’oti." The steel example is late 19th century, by Joseph Beal of Sheffield - curious it is not an English billhook shape... and I have never seen another similar blade, nor even a billhook by them. Was it made for export to Europe or as trade goods for use elsewhere in the world... It seems of exceptional quality for trade goods, and I would expect to have seen others if it was made as such.... Or was it fashioned by a local blacksmith from a cut down naval cutlass to resemble the local wooden weaponry.... (Assuming that after the introduction of colonial rule, the European's would have also introduced iron working techiques, and supplied bar stock as required) Note the only J Beal I can trace was a cutler, not an edge tool maker - a cut-throat razor stamped J&J Beal can be found at: http://straightrazorplace.com/razors...lp-please.html - it is possible they made trade goods, but more likely that they made naval cutlasses or officers' swords (c.f. Wilkinson Sword do today) Updated: they made Ashanti Slavers swords, a form of cutlass: http://faganarms.com/weapons_arms_ar...l/weapons.aspx so it is possible they made other weaponry... Update 2: Yes they did: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/printt...p?t=7034&pp=40 as well as pocket knives... and Machetes: http://www.nzaaawgtn.org.nz/a08_12511300.asp Attached Images Last edited by Billman; 18th May 2011 at 06:59 PM.