Taureg(?) knife for comments

russel · 12th May 2013, 01:40 PM

I just won this for a few dollars on ebay. The seller listed it as Taureg, apparently bought in Algeria in the 70's. It certainly isn't a particularly impressive piece. The knife itself seems pretty rudimentary, but the scabbard appealed to me.

Indeed, could the scabbard be the only thing Taureg about it?

Sajen · 12th May 2013, 02:23 PM

Congrats, I am very far away to be knowledge about this area but think that you bought an original old Tuareg dagger. Do some research by the keyword "Tuareg" and you will see that I am correct.

Regards,

Detlef

BANTARU · 12th May 2013, 03:32 PM

yes its an original Tuareg dagger. good for stabbing and skinning.

clean it up a bit and it will look good. Gratz!

Sajen · 12th May 2013, 03:47 PM

Here for example you can see some old Tuareg dagger: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=tuareg

I think when you clean carefully the blade you have a very nice dagger.

Iain · 12th May 2013, 08:28 PM

This is one of those cases where these are typically IDed as Tuareg, but I would probably term it a "Western Sahel" style knife. Knives of this form are found over a wide area, it may well be Tuareg, it may well have been used by someone from a different group. This appears to be a 20th century piece from the photos but has a good stout blade. A nice find particularly if it was cheap.

colin henshaw · 12th May 2013, 09:30 PM

I think Iain is on the button here - to describe this knife as "Taureg" is the same as calling any spear from Southern Africa "Zulu"...

A nice real piece certainly.

Iain · 12th May 2013, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colin henshaw

I think Iain is on the button here - to describe this knife as "Taureg" is the same as calling any spear from Southern Africa "Zulu"...

A nice real piece certainly.

Hi Colin,

Glad you agree - this issue is a bit of a pet peeve with me, which probably stems from the frustration of seeing all takouba labelled as Tuareg but I'm digressing...

Even if this knife was in use in a Tuareg area in an earlier period, it would be unlikely to have been carried by what most people would recognize as a Tuareg - a Imajaghan caste member who would more likely carry a telek. The Tuareg had many client castes and many were not of the same ethnic background as the upper class Tuareg (see Ikelan).

On top of this styles across the western Sahel seem to have been shared across quite large areas - for example takouba, or cross hilted teleks (the all brass examples being often ascribed to the Tuareg but were mainly made far away in Bida Nigeria).

I hope this gives a little more background Russel on why I'd give a generalization rather than an exacting attribution in this case. If I owned the piece I wouldn't consider this a bad thing at all.

russel · 13th May 2013, 10:07 PM

Thanks first all your comments guys, really helpful. I love learning about the people who made and used these things we collect.

The bargain keeps getting better though. I bought it on a whim at AUD$27.39 including postage. But on payment I had forgotten that my PayPal account had a $13 in it from a postage refund from a previous seller. So I only ended up $9.39 out of pocket. Doesn't really get much better than that!

Iain · 14th May 2013, 09:26 AM

Happy to help Russel! Looks like you indeed got quite the bargain. I personally find items like this quite interesting, because they show a practical side to the more glamorous versions many collectors are drawn to.

Martin Lubojacky · 15th May 2013, 01:12 AM

Hi,
Allow me to enter this discussion with a "small" delay. First of all, this is ordinary dagger, but interesting one - I consider it nice. Congratulations.

Just idea:
I think it could be part of collection of cold weapons which are/were used within the territory inhabited by Tuaregs (and I am not sure it is common type in western Sahel

). If we are sure, that Tuaregs only used nice arm daggers and belt daggers with brass handles, then we could apply Colin´s parable with Zulu and south African spears, but is it really so ? (If anybody has something like typology of daggers used within different Tuareg confederations /I mean in past/ I would like to go through it, this is what interests me a lot). I personally consider this as one of the types.

I feel for you, Iain, as far as generalisation of Takouba is concerned and also concerning those Nupe brass arm daggers often described as Tuareg daggers. On the other side, it is easy to make opposite mistake (to refuse what is not very typical or well known).

Depply down in Sahel one could find "like Nuba arm daggers" in eastern part, "like Tebbu daggers" you can find e.g.till mid of Nigeria (maybe proliferation of type through Fulani), in western Sahel another type (tassel on the sheath or Mandingo style decor). Maybe I am wrong but I think especially the handle of the dagger presented here is already a little bit more typical for Sahara, than for Sahel.

Territory inhabited by Tuaregs is relatively big. Some sources gives 7 main confederations, some old sources from 19 century 5 confederations: Azjer conf., Ahaggar conf., Air (Kel Ovi) conf., Auellimid conf. and Ar Rerf Ahnet conf. Each of this confederation has (or had ?)several main (aristocratic) "families", if I understan it well. Eg. Azjer had Imanan "family", Oraghen "family", Imanghasaten "family", Izhaban "family" and Ihadhanaren "family". And under each of this families served a relatively big number of subordinated clans (which often vere mixed with another ethnic groups, but I think they consider themselves Tuaregs too, although they vere not allowed to use the whole steel allarh etc.). Some sources speak about West and East Tuaregs, some about North and South Tuaregs. I am of the opinion (but I emphasize this is only my opinion), that it would be strange if there would not be at least any special marks or signs on arms, signs which would differ e. g. north of the total territory (Tuareg territory began on southern Tunisian border in past, i. e. it was under influence of other "settled" Berbers and Arabs) from the south (where Tuareg clans practically lived next door to Hausa/Fulani Kingdoms). Or maybe they used daggers of slightly different design ? Another example: Old Tuaregs in Libya still differentiates styles of turbans in each confederation. I am enclosing pictures of daggers which I posted here already before - there is certain simmilarity in handles. They all were bought from Tuaregs in the middle of Sahara and on Tuareg territory (Ghat and Oubari), nevertheless those people allegedly came from Air.
Regards,
Martin

Iain · 15th May 2013, 07:21 AM

Hi Martin,

Great points and that was more or less what I was trying to express although perhaps it wasn't entirely clear.

I didn't see a reason why this dagger couldn't be owned by a Tuareg, but I don't think the design makes it exclusively Tuareg. Hence I am not sure it should be called a Tuareg specific pattern, or simply of a pattern common to that area.

Cheers,

Iain

12th May 2013, 01:40 PM	#1
russel Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Tasmania, Australia Posts: 236	Taureg(?) knife for comments I just won this for a few dollars on ebay. The seller listed it as Taureg, apparently bought in Algeria in the 70's. It certainly isn't a particularly impressive piece. The knife itself seems pretty rudimentary, but the scabbard appealed to me. Indeed, could the scabbard be the only thing Taureg about it? Attached Images

12th May 2013, 02:23 PM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Congrats, I am very far away to be knowledge about this area but think that you bought an original old Tuareg dagger. Do some research by the keyword "Tuareg" and you will see that I am correct. Regards, Detlef Last edited by Sajen; 12th May 2013 at 03:48 PM.

15th May 2013, 01:12 AM	#10
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	Hi, Allow me to enter this discussion with a "small" delay. First of all, this is ordinary dagger, but interesting one - I consider it nice. Congratulations. Just idea: I think it could be part of collection of cold weapons which are/were used within the territory inhabited by Tuaregs (and I am not sure it is common type in western Sahel ). If we are sure, that Tuaregs only used nice arm daggers and belt daggers with brass handles, then we could apply Colin´s parable with Zulu and south African spears, but is it really so ? (If anybody has something like typology of daggers used within different Tuareg confederations /I mean in past/ I would like to go through it, this is what interests me a lot). I personally consider this as one of the types. I feel for you, Iain, as far as generalisation of Takouba is concerned and also concerning those Nupe brass arm daggers often described as Tuareg daggers. On the other side, it is easy to make opposite mistake (to refuse what is not very typical or well known). Depply down in Sahel one could find "like Nuba arm daggers" in eastern part, "like Tebbu daggers" you can find e.g.till mid of Nigeria (maybe proliferation of type through Fulani), in western Sahel another type (tassel on the sheath or Mandingo style decor). Maybe I am wrong but I think especially the handle of the dagger presented here is already a little bit more typical for Sahara, than for Sahel. Territory inhabited by Tuaregs is relatively big. Some sources gives 7 main confederations, some old sources from 19 century 5 confederations: Azjer conf., Ahaggar conf., Air (Kel Ovi) conf., Auellimid conf. and Ar Rerf Ahnet conf. Each of this confederation has (or had ?)several main (aristocratic) "families", if I understan it well. Eg. Azjer had Imanan "family", Oraghen "family", Imanghasaten "family", Izhaban "family" and Ihadhanaren "family". And under each of this families served a relatively big number of subordinated clans (which often vere mixed with another ethnic groups, but I think they consider themselves Tuaregs too, although they vere not allowed to use the whole steel allarh etc.). Some sources speak about West and East Tuaregs, some about North and South Tuaregs. I am of the opinion (but I emphasize this is only my opinion), that it would be strange if there would not be at least any special marks or signs on arms, signs which would differ e. g. north of the total territory (Tuareg territory began on southern Tunisian border in past, i. e. it was under influence of other "settled" Berbers and Arabs) from the south (where Tuareg clans practically lived next door to Hausa/Fulani Kingdoms). Or maybe they used daggers of slightly different design ? Another example: Old Tuaregs in Libya still differentiates styles of turbans in each confederation. I am enclosing pictures of daggers which I posted here already before - there is certain simmilarity in handles. They all were bought from Tuaregs in the middle of Sahara and on Tuareg territory (Ghat and Oubari), nevertheless those people allegedly came from Air. Regards, Martin Attached Images

12th May 2013, 03:32 PM	#3
BANTARU Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 39	yes its an original Tuareg dagger. good for stabbing and skinning. clean it up a bit and it will look good. Gratz!

12th May 2013, 03:47 PM	#4
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Here for example you can see some old Tuareg dagger: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=tuareg I think when you clean carefully the blade you have a very nice dagger.

12th May 2013, 08:28 PM	#5
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	This is one of those cases where these are typically IDed as Tuareg, but I would probably term it a "Western Sahel" style knife. Knives of this form are found over a wide area, it may well be Tuareg, it may well have been used by someone from a different group. This appears to be a 20th century piece from the photos but has a good stout blade. A nice find particularly if it was cheap.

12th May 2013, 09:30 PM	#6
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	I think Iain is on the button here - to describe this knife as "Taureg" is the same as calling any spear from Southern Africa "Zulu"... A nice real piece certainly.

13th May 2013, 10:07 PM	#8
russel Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Tasmania, Australia Posts: 236	Thanks first all your comments guys, really helpful. I love learning about the people who made and used these things we collect. The bargain keeps getting better though. I bought it on a whim at AUD$27.39 including postage. But on payment I had forgotten that my PayPal account had a $13 in it from a postage refund from a previous seller. So I only ended up $9.39 out of pocket. Doesn't really get much better than that!

14th May 2013, 09:26 AM	#9
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Happy to help Russel! Looks like you indeed got quite the bargain. I personally find items like this quite interesting, because they show a practical side to the more glamorous versions many collectors are drawn to.

15th May 2013, 07:21 AM	#11
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Hi Martin, Great points and that was more or less what I was trying to express although perhaps it wasn't entirely clear. I didn't see a reason why this dagger couldn't be owned by a Tuareg, but I don't think the design makes it exclusively Tuareg. Hence I am not sure it should be called a Tuareg specific pattern, or simply of a pattern common to that area. Cheers, Iain