Kalkan shield

Kubur · 7th October 2020, 08:48 PM

I decided to go out of the woods when I saw the discussion on the kalkan shield.

The kalkan is NOT an Ottoman shield. It's a Kurdish shield.

It's the reason why you can find it in Turkey.

The only similarity with Ottoman shield is the construction technique, the shield is made of straw.

The Ottoman Turkish shield is different.

Here is my kalkan and a Kurdish chap with a buckler / kalkan.

francantolin · 7th October 2020, 09:09 PM

Thumbs up !
The one you have is really nice ! !
I Like the raw iron-steel structure

Martin Lubojacky · 8th October 2020, 10:46 AM

Hello Kubur.
Thank you for interesting pictures. Please, could you post some pictures of a typical Ottoman shield ? And also how it was/is called (if not kalkan) ? Thank you.

Best regards,

Martin

Kubur · 8th October 2020, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Lubojacky

Hello Kubur.
Thank you for interesting pictures. Please, could you post some pictures of a typical Ottoman shield ? And also how it was/is called (if not kalkan) ? Thank you.

Best regards,

Martin

Hi Martin,

Yes I can.
As you can see the Ottoman shield is much bigger 40 to 50cm.
The wickerwork is much better on the Turkish Ottoman shields.
Only the central part is made of iron, there is no radial bars around.

Very interesting question about the name, because actually (as you know) the name is the same
at least for the 19th century....
I don't know before the 19th c.
and I don't know about the Kurdish name...

If you google Ottoman shield
you will see a lot of Kurdish kalkans.
Why?
Because they are very common and easy to find;
and for a dealer it's always better to sell an Ottoman shield...
I'm very happy with my tribal Kurdish shield.

Martin Lubojacky · 8th October 2020, 03:15 PM

Thank you Kubur

Battara · 10th October 2020, 12:39 AM

If this is Kurdish, then what does a Turkish shied look like?

Philip · 10th October 2020, 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

If this is Kurdish, then what does a Turkish shied look like?

See the two images in post #4 on this thread.

Battara · 10th October 2020, 08:47 AM

Oh I see - I missed that. Thanks.

So the so-called Ottoman "Parade" shields are actually run of the mill Ottoman shields...............

Kubur · 10th October 2020, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Oh I see - I missed that. Thanks.

So the so-called Ottoman "Parade" shields are actually run of the mill Ottoman shields...............

Hi!
Where are the parade shields?

Battara · 12th October 2020, 04:10 AM

Yeah they always call these "parade" shields. Not sure why........

Kubur · 12th October 2020, 07:52 AM

I can tell you why they call them parade.
Because they are colourful and look fragile.
If all the shields made of straw, wood or leather were parade shields, we won't have a lot of battle shields...
The straw does the job, it will minimize the impact. Actualy it's the opposite the fancy full steel Persian and Indian shields were the parade shields.
For the colour it's the same, our world is grey, the past was colourful.

Plus I doubt that all the Ottoman shields captured during the siege of Vienna were parade shields.

Philip · 12th October 2020, 11:53 PM

Seems to me that something that is both ornamented yet well-designed and crafted of proper materials can function just well on the battlefield as at a ceremonial gala or public display. Look at the late-medieval and Renaissance pavises from Europe, brightly emblazoned with the heraldic emblems relevant to the units which used them. if they were meant just for show by virtue of their colorful décor, they wouldn't have been made so massively (to withstand the force of longbow and crossbow projectiles).

So what are "proper materials" ?

Spirally-wound and tightly bound rattan may seem flimsy to us, but keep in mind that it was widely used in cultures where the material was available or could be obtained through trade, and where cutting and projectile weapons were well-developed. Think most of SE Asia, Tibet, China, etc. I recall reading somewhere that Malay rattan shields were capable of standing up to blows from European naval cutlasses. And note this passage from Stone's Glossary...(p 557) :

"Some of the shields that appear light and weak were much more effective at the time they were made than they appear to us with our knowledge of present-day weapons. Walllace, p 360, speaking of the Aru Islander's shields, says, 'Oner of the war shields was brought to us to look at. It was made of rattan and covered with cotton twist, so as to be both light, strong, and very tough. I should think it would resist an ordinary bullet' [italics are the author's]."

One last thought -- in armies in which commanders often purchased their own equipment, the natural preference for high quality often included the desire for added decoration, and those were the days in which they typically led troops into the thick of the fray.

qusko · 13th October 2020, 08:00 PM

Hi,

I have attached kalkan from polish army museum in Warsaw. It's marked as battle shield (less decorated then parade one)
http://www.muzeumwp.pl/emwpaedia/kalkan-bojowy.php

I think we have more parade kalkans as they were expensive and not used in fight. When I say parade, it should have precious stones / umbo made with gold, ...
http://www.muzeumwp.pl/emwpaedia/kal...y-pancerny.php

Still all colorful versions with steel parts are made for 'normal use'

7th October 2020, 08:48 PM	#1
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Kalkan shield I decided to go out of the woods when I saw the discussion on the kalkan shield. The kalkan is NOT an Ottoman shield. It's a Kurdish shield. It's the reason why you can find it in Turkey. The only similarity with Ottoman shield is the construction technique, the shield is made of straw. The Ottoman Turkish shield is different. Here is my kalkan and a Kurdish chap with a buckler / kalkan. Attached Images

12th October 2020, 11:53 PM	#12
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	made for the battlefield or parade field? Seems to me that something that is both ornamented yet well-designed and crafted of proper materials can function just well on the battlefield as at a ceremonial gala or public display. Look at the late-medieval and Renaissance pavises from Europe, brightly emblazoned with the heraldic emblems relevant to the units which used them. if they were meant just for show by virtue of their colorful décor, they wouldn't have been made so massively (to withstand the force of longbow and crossbow projectiles). So what are "proper materials" ? Spirally-wound and tightly bound rattan may seem flimsy to us, but keep in mind that it was widely used in cultures where the material was available or could be obtained through trade, and where cutting and projectile weapons were well-developed. Think most of SE Asia, Tibet, China, etc. I recall reading somewhere that Malay rattan shields were capable of standing up to blows from European naval cutlasses. And note this passage from Stone's Glossary...(p 557) : "Some of the shields that appear light and weak were much more effective at the time they were made than they appear to us with our knowledge of present-day weapons. Walllace, p 360, speaking of the Aru Islander's shields, says, 'Oner of the war shields was brought to us to look at. It was made of rattan and covered with cotton twist, so as to be both light, strong, and very tough. I should think it would resist an ordinary bullet' [italics are the author's]." One last thought -- in armies in which commanders often purchased their own equipment, the natural preference for high quality often included the desire for added decoration, and those were the days in which they typically led troops into the thick of the fray. Last edited by Philip; 13th October 2020 at 12:01 AM. Reason: biblio correction

13th October 2020, 08:00 PM	#13
qusko Member Join Date: Nov 2018 Posts: 55	Hi, I have attached kalkan from polish army museum in Warsaw. It's marked as battle shield (less decorated then parade one) http://www.muzeumwp.pl/emwpaedia/kalkan-bojowy.php I think we have more parade kalkans as they were expensive and not used in fight. When I say parade, it should have precious stones / umbo made with gold, ... http://www.muzeumwp.pl/emwpaedia/kal...y-pancerny.php Still all colorful versions with steel parts are made for 'normal use' Attached Images

7th October 2020, 09:09 PM	#2
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 877	Thumbs up ! The one you have is really nice ! ! I Like the raw iron-steel structure

8th October 2020, 10:46 AM	#3
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	Hello Kubur. Thank you for interesting pictures. Please, could you post some pictures of a typical Ottoman shield ? And also how it was/is called (if not kalkan) ? Thank you. Best regards, Martin

8th October 2020, 03:15 PM	#5
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	Thank you Kubur

10th October 2020, 12:39 AM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,225	If this is Kurdish, then what does a Turkish shied look like?

10th October 2020, 08:47 AM	#8
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,225	Oh I see - I missed that. Thanks. So the so-called Ottoman "Parade" shields are actually run of the mill Ottoman shields...............

12th October 2020, 04:10 AM	#10
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,225	Yeah they always call these "parade" shields. Not sure why........

12th October 2020, 07:52 AM	#11
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	I can tell you why they call them parade. Because they are colourful and look fragile. If all the shields made of straw, wood or leather were parade shields, we won't have a lot of battle shields... The straw does the job, it will minimize the impact. Actualy it's the opposite the fancy full steel Persian and Indian shields were the parade shields. For the colour it's the same, our world is grey, the past was colourful. Plus I doubt that all the Ottoman shields captured during the siege of Vienna were parade shields.