small knife/dagger from India

[Montino Bourbon]

I just returned from a trip to Jaipur, India, where I saw quite a few well made daggers. Some of you may be familiar with the Damascus pattern that they're using for reproduction of antique daggers, mostly dense small dots and concentric rings. I had a very difficult time finding anything old, especially wootz. finally my tuk tuk driver said that he knew a place that had “old” things. I told him, explaining with photographic examples from my iPad, that I knew the difference between “real” old and “new” old, and that I would walk out laughing if they trird to pass off some of the new stuff on me. He brought me to a very large emporium, where a gentleman stood in front of a large display of the obviously “new” antiques. When I asked him to show me something old, he took down on old, battered looking dagger that was the same new material as all the rest. I laughed and started to walk out. “Wait, Sahib, I just wanted to make sure.” He said, then took me upstairs to the “back room”, where I was delighted to see about a dozen nice pieces of wootz, among other antiques. one of these pieces, This small knife/dagger, I liked a lot. Upon examination, I noticed a clear wootz pattern, not very visible in these photographs, and bought it immediately.

I have not tried to etch this blade, especially since reading some of the “restoration” threads. the pattern is absolutely plainly visible in sunlight. Any suggestions? Comments? If somebody can tell me more about this piece, I would greatly appreciate it.

[VANDOO]

NOT MY FIELD BUT THE TYPE STRIKES AS CLOSEST TO A KARD AND THE HANDLE LOOKS PERHAPS BOSNIAN IN FORM TO ME. OVERALL LESS INDIAN AND MORE ARABIC/TURKISH TO MY EYE. I CAN'T SEE THE STEEL AND YOU WILL HAVE MUCH MORE KNOWLEGE THAN I IN THAT. JUST OBSERVATIONS HOPEFULLY SOMEONE WITH MUCH MORE KNOWLEGE THAN I WILL GIVE YOU A POSITIVE IDENTIFICATION.
ITS ALWAYS NICE TO FIND SOMETHING GOOD WHILE TRAVELING VERY NICE KNIFE!!

[Stan S.]

You are lucky. Upon my two visits to Mumbai (one lasting a whole month), I literally spent days looking to find genuine antiques and failed miserably. The excuse most shop-keepers gave me is that any sword or dagger made in the "old style" is in fact an antique. They woudl bat their eyes and look at me as if I was crazy when I tried to explain that these were modern repros

[Montino Bourbon]

yes, it does have that "Eared" look that some Balkan daggers have. The people where I bought it claim that it came from Bikaner, a small kingdom north of Jaipur.

[Montino Bourbon]

Stan–I know exactly what you mean. It obviously takes patience and luck to find anything genuine. Luckily for me, I had my iPad with me and showed them what wootz looks like, as well as what a well-made dagger looks like. They had no answer to that. A picture is worth 1000 words.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Montino Bourbon

I just returned from a trip to Jaipur, India, where I saw quite a few well made daggers. Some of you may be familiar with the Damascus pattern that they're using for reproduction of antique daggers, mostly dense small dots and concentric rings. I had a very difficult time finding anything old, especially wootz. finally my tuk tuk driver said that he knew a place that had “old” things. I told him, explaining with photographic examples from my iPad, that I knew the difference between “real” old and “new” old, and that I would walk out laughing if they trird to pass off some of the new stuff on me. He brought me to a very large emporium, where a gentleman stood in front of a large display of the obviously “new” antiques. When I asked him to show me something old, he took down on old, battered looking dagger that was the same new material as all the rest. I laughed and started to walk out. “Wait, Sahib, I just wanted to make sure.” He said, then took me upstairs to the “back room”, where I was delighted to see about a dozen nice pieces of wootz, among other antiques. one of these pieces, This small knife/dagger, I liked a lot. Upon examination, I noticed a clear wootz pattern, not very visible in these photographs, and bought it immediately.

I have not tried to etch this blade, especially since reading some of the “restoration” threads. the pattern is absolutely plainly visible in sunlight. Any suggestions? Comments? If somebody can tell me more about this piece, I would greatly appreciate it.

Salaams Montino Bourbon ~ Nice story and a familiar one to many who have trod the same or similar path...I think they term wootz as Johar in India..I note from forum library the two distinct types of wootz. You could try polishing the blade (etching) with vinegar rather than plunging in with strong acid.Hot vinegar is quite agressive...so be advised. Then clean it off in hot water and soap..and with a 00 grade paper bring up the grain..see what it looks like...Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Montino Bourbon]

I am an Indian musician, disciple of one of the greatest musicians of the last century, Ustad Ali Akbar Khan. I went primarily to play and enjoy music, and I had a wonderful time. I'm also very much of an appreciators of weapons, and went as far as to take a course in forging swords last year.

That experience changed my collecting forever; I was lucky enough to make an excellent Tanto, so my new collecting standard is that I will not buy something that isn't as good as what I can make myself.

There are very nice pieces being made, but they are not up to the standards of 200 years ago... Yet. Their smiths are learning fast, though. I suspect that they might read up and start trying to make Wootz soon....

I shall try the vinegar etch later today and post the results here. Thank you so much for the info, and I have to mention that I really appreciate your knowledge and your willingness to participate in this forum.

Montino

[Atlantia]

Hi Montino,

I would say that the trend is staring to change in India from out and out reproductions towards rebuilds and restorations to maximise the value of 'old pieces' as collectors demand the genuine article.
I would say that the knife you have bought falls into that category.
I could be wrong as I am basing my thoughts on just the pictures of course, but it looks to me to have been recently polished/etched and I would suspect that the hilt slabs are new.

However, that said it looks to have been done very well and unlike many I see, it wasn't a project that started with a very poor worn blade.
Overall a rather nice thing.

Best
Gene

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Montino Bourbon

I am an Indian musician, disciple of one of the greatest musicians of the last century, Ustad Ali Akbar Khan. I went primarily to play and enjoy music, and I had a wonderful time. I'm also very much of an appreciators of weapons, and went as far as to take a course in forging swords last year.

That experience changed my collecting forever; I was lucky enough to make an excellent Tanto, so my new collecting standard is that I will not buy something that isn't as good as what I can make myself.

There are very nice pieces being made, but they are not up to the standards of 200 years ago... Yet. Their smiths are learning fast, though. I suspect that they might read up and start trying to make Wootz soon....

I shall try the vinegar etch later today and post the results here. Thank you so much for the info, and I have to mention that I really appreciate your knowledge and your willingness to participate in this forum.

Montino

Salaams Ya Ustad Montino Bourbon! Please take care with hot vinegar as it is agressive and I always treat it like a dangerous acid from the safety handling viewpoint and from the effect on the blade... you will have to watch how long it soaks. Its a trial and error and needs to be watched. Please combine this with what is noted on forum library on etching. Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[David R]

A gentleman on another forum swears by pineapple juice to bring out the pattern, and I have had decent results in the past from worcester sauce.

[Lew]

A weak solution of ferric chloride 3 parts distilled water to one part ferric chloride should do the trick you can either dip into the solution directly for 30 seconds or apply even coats until the desired effect is reached but be careful not to over etch it. Rinse with warm water to neutralize the solution dry and apply a drop of mineral oil to the blade.

[Montino Bourbon]

I've been coming to this forum for years, and it's such a gold mine of wonderful information. Thank you all for participating.

Does anybody know anything about the style of this particular knife/ dagger? I liked it because it has the shape of a functional knife, not just a people–stabbing implement. if there's anybody here that can pin down provenance, I would greatly appreciate it.

[Jens Nordlunde]

I would start to research daggers from the northern part, and while you are at it, try to make a search here on the forum for 'eared daggers', you may find something.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Montino Bourbon

I've been coming to this forum for years, and it's such a gold mine of wonderful information. Thank you all for participating.

Does anybody know anything about the style of this particular knife/ dagger? I liked it because it has the shape of a functional knife, not just a people–stabbing implement. if there's anybody here that can pin down provenance, I would greatly appreciate it.

Thanks very much Montino for the kind words on our forum (which we're all quite proud of) and likewise, I know I have very much appreciated your valuable contributions here.

As Jens has well noted, this particular style of hilt may be found in the northern parts of India, and I know I have seen these bifurcated pommels (in effect recalling the shashka) in Central Asian daggers as well. The blade of course closely follows the Persian kard, as well noted by Vandoo, and is similar to profiles found in Bukhara (Flindt, 1979, p.23, fig. 25c).
The same bifurcated pommel in strikingly similar section is seen on a 'zirah bhonk' dagger from N.India c.1725 (Pant CCX, CCXI) and the 'peaked' profile on your example is seen on 'revival' type shamshirs of 18th century Mughal use (Pant, p.132, fig. 374.

With these comparisons, I would say your dagger is of 18th century style, of kard form, and probably Mughal very likely produced in Rajasthan. It does seem to have some age, so a 19th c. presumption seems plausible.

In my opinion, a subtle nuance like the finger nock carved toward the pommel is something I would presume absent in modern reproductions, which as we know remains a thriving industry throughout Rajasthan.
Well played with the merchant who was clearly 'throwing out the hook', and saw you were no novice. Knowledge is the collectors most valuable weapon, and thats why we all work together to learn as much as we can....much to the dismay of many dealers and merchants who prey on the unwary.

All the best,
Jim

[Montino Bourbon]

so I wouldn't be surprised if it came from around there. The person that I bought it from seemed to think that it came from a small kingdom to the North of Jaipur, Bikaner. The blade is not thick, the spine being no more than 2 mm thick, so I don't think of it so much as a “combat” weapon as much as a “knife”.

oh, and as I mentioned, I had my iPad with me with photographs of “real” and “modern” antiques, and examples of wootz and the modern mechanical Damascus produced in Rajasthan these days. Some of that, by the way, is quite nice. Just not antique.

[Jim McDougall]