Indian or African? all metal lance.

Tim Simmons · 24th November 2006, 06:06 PM

I have been lucky just lately

. That will probably end soon

. The cost of shipping with bad pics must of helped. I bought this thinking it was African maybe Congo or West Africa. It could be Asian, Indian. The way the decoration around the handle part spreads out and dissipates in a subtle way makes me think if it is Asian I would think it was from the North East Frontier wild tribes as they used to say. Personally I think this kind of subtly is more African

. I need some help on this one. I favour Africa but I would

. The total length is just over 152cm. The blade is 18cm long. The brass parts are approximately 4cm in diameter. It is heavy and could deliver a tremendous thrust.

katana · 24th November 2006, 08:10 PM

Well done Tim,
I saw this...and liked it alot....fortunately I changed priorities and blew the budget elsewhere (I'm not comfortable bidding against fellow formites....hence 'fortunately).

I felt it was more likely Indian, .....but where ever it came from...it's a very nice spear.....congrats...

Any idea as to the function of the two rings......perhaps to hold the ends of a strap/rope for carrying purposes

Tim Simmons · 24th November 2006, 08:57 PM

The rings are only free to move up untill the middle section swelling or handle. I could bet my last £ it is African, there is a challenge for you all

.

katana · 25th November 2006, 01:10 AM

Hi, Tim....am I right in saying that lances often had a form of sling ... to take alot of its weight. I was thinking that the rings were moveable, fixing points for some sort of sling. Even if the lance/spear was carried on foot.....when 'advancing with spears extended....with the sling over your shoulder (spear holding side) it would take a lot of the weight of the spear from the warrior..... would not impede the use of the spear in a thrusting action, due to the sliding rings, but would still have the weight to inflict devastating wounds.

I would love for this to be African.......still think its Indo-Persian

Lew · 25th November 2006, 01:56 AM

I am steering more towards African the spear is nice but does not exhibit the finesse a an Indo Persian weapon.

Below is an Ivory coast spear which I think could be Dan tribe.

Lew

Tim Simmons · 25th November 2006, 09:24 AM

Yet again something new from Africa. This lance weighs in at just under 2.5kg. It is quite possible a sling of some sort was used with the two rings.

Lew that is a fine lance indeed. How heavy is it? I bet mine is bigger and more weighty than yours

.

Lew · 25th November 2006, 11:04 AM

Tim

My spear is hollow with some type of bead rolling around inside the shaft section weight maybe 2lbs a thrower for sure.

katana · 25th November 2006, 03:33 PM

Hi Tim,
some images of Indian lance butts and a spear with similar decoration near spearhead.....although spearhead shape not an exact match.

Tim Simmons · 25th November 2006, 04:08 PM

There are some good pictures in, A Tirri's book. The shapes do have some similarity. I base my opinion more on the decoration. It is possible that it could be, as I said from the wild tribes of the North East Frontier where the subtle or what some might say more primitive decoration would be apt. But even there I think the blade looks a little more African to me. The decoration on the shaft reminds me of some of the markings seen on Congo spear shafts in particular.

katana · 25th November 2006, 04:22 PM

I agree.....the spearhead does look African.......but there seems to be an Indo-persian influence with primative decoration. If African....could it not be from the North ? would explain the 'influences'....... and seeing as the Toureg are famed for their all metal lance/spears .......

Tim Simmons · 25th November 2006, 05:27 PM

Without doubt there are plenty of weapons in Africa influenced by Indo/Persian and Arab forms. Take the Mahdist period weaponry, this may even be from that epoch.

Tim Simmons · 25th November 2006, 08:31 PM

The brass lump near the blade must be to stop the target accepting too much of the lance when you think of the force it could deliver.

Tim Simmons · 26th November 2006, 11:19 AM

Could this be a "saintie" like weapon? surely it is too long and is not made to parry with. I still think the decoration is too informal for Indian work. But I know very little about old Indian weapons.

Tim Simmons · 29th November 2006, 05:46 PM

I think I am allowed to make this link. If I am wrong then please delete this post. This spear confirms my opinion that it is African and to be more precise Western Sahara. The spear in the link is labeled as Asian. In my opinion it is Mauritanian, African anyway. shame I have no money left.

http://www.michaeldlong.net/Ko-Bespo.../E3/131/103807

Lew · 29th November 2006, 05:56 PM

[QUOTE=Tim The spear in the link is labeled as Asian. In my opinion it is Mauritanian, African anyway. shame I have no money left.

Don't be sad Tim

I to suffer from the same disease it's called Fundsarlow syndrome

and it affects many of us here on the forum

Lew

Tim Simmons · 29th November 2006, 06:53 PM

A most ghastly affliction. I hope some medicine arrives on my work bench very soon.

VANDOO · 1st December 2006, 10:12 PM

TAKE A LOOK IN STONES PAGE 213 FIGURE 264 IT IS A SPEAR FROM TIBET REFERED TO AS DUNG. THE INFORMATION ON SOME OF ITS USES IS INTERESTING AND IT HAS THE CARRING STRAP. I DON'T THINK YOURS IS FROM TIBET AND HAVE SEEN EXAMPLES OF THE SHORT SPEARS WITH CARRING STRAP IN AFRICA THEY DO SEEM TO BE ASSOCIATED WITH RIDEING EITHER CAMMELS OR HORSE. ALSO LOOK AT STONES PAGE 536 FIGURE 685 FOR ANOTHER STRANGE SHORT SPEAR TYPE WEAPON.

Tim Simmons · 9th December 2007, 09:16 PM

Brought this back up after some cross referencing. Look at the blade in this post by Fernando. The blade form, decoration and brass work do have a remarkable similarity. It would be nice if this was so as I have just ebay'd what I hope is a very nice 33" blade Mandara sword.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=mandara

Jim McDougall · 9th December 2007, 11:38 PM

I think Vandoo's note on the carrying rings is very well placed, especially in noting these are also present in African spears as well as Tibet. I will say that my first inclination in looking at the decorative bulbs on the spear were that they seem Indian. This is much in accordance with David's notes and the illustrations he posted.
I do agree however, that this work is pretty rough for the work from India, even the village work, which I think avoided such elaborate decoration.

I would submit that possibly this is African work, intended to replicate such weapons from India. There seems of course considerable influence in many African weapons that certainly derives from the Subcontinent, and is most likely associated in degree with the profound trade in key centers such as Zanzibar. The Red Sea trade of course also entered through Ethiopian centers which also carried weapons from Indian sources. It would not seem unlikely that an African smith seeking to emulate the much finer quality spears of India might produce such work. This is not to suggest that African smiths were necessarily less adept, as overall the weapons of Africa often reflect beautiful workmanship. However, like all skilled work, the range of quality varies greatly.

It seems also that the diamond geometric with central dots is something I've seen on African weapons.

All best regards,
Jim

Bill M · 10th December 2007, 02:37 PM

Another thread showing my Sang or Sangu. Some similarities.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=sang

Tim Simmons · 10th December 2007, 08:49 PM

Intesting Bill. Sort of what one would expect from India?

Tim Simmons · 10th December 2007, 10:05 PM

Bill, I was just about to retire for the night when I had a thought. Does your sang like thing really look Indo/Persian? I am not completely sure. The work reminds me of some Mauritanian metalwork. I can show metalwork from Africa that might make us change our minds but it will have to wait for now.

Bill M · 10th December 2007, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Bill, I was just about to retire for the night when I had a thought. Does your sang like thing really look Indo/Persian? I am not completely sure. The work reminds me of some Mauritanian metalwork. I can show metalwork from Africa that might make us change our minds but it will have to wait for now.

I think it is, but can't be sure. I'll go see if I can find it in my Pants.

Tim Simmons · 10th December 2007, 10:13 PM

Ha ha!!

Bill M · 10th December 2007, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Ha ha!!

Well, the problem is there is no appendix in my Pants.

But I'll keep looking.

Pusaka · 11th December 2007, 07:59 PM

When I first opened this post and looked at the photos before reading my thoughts were Africa, thats where my bet would be.

Tim Simmons · 14th November 2008, 05:33 PM

Took some time.

24th November 2006, 06:06 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Indian or African? all metal lance. I have been lucky just lately . That will probably end soon . The cost of shipping with bad pics must of helped. I bought this thinking it was African maybe Congo or West Africa. It could be Asian, Indian. The way the decoration around the handle part spreads out and dissipates in a subtle way makes me think if it is Asian I would think it was from the North East Frontier wild tribes as they used to say. Personally I think this kind of subtly is more African . I need some help on this one. I favour Africa but I would . The total length is just over 152cm. The blade is 18cm long. The brass parts are approximately 4cm in diameter. It is heavy and could deliver a tremendous thrust. Attached Images

25th November 2006, 01:56 AM	#5
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	I am steering more towards African the spear is nice but does not exhibit the finesse a an Indo Persian weapon. Below is an Ivory coast spear which I think could be Dan tribe. Lew Attached Images

25th November 2006, 09:24 AM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Yet again something new from Africa. This lance weighs in at just under 2.5kg. It is quite possible a sling of some sort was used with the two rings. Lew that is a fine lance indeed. How heavy is it? I bet mine is bigger and more weighty than yours . Last edited by Tim Simmons; 25th November 2006 at 09:50 AM.

25th November 2006, 03:33 PM	#8
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Tim, some images of Indian lance butts and a spear with similar decoration near spearhead.....although spearhead shape not an exact match. Attached Images

29th November 2006, 05:46 PM	#14
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I have read the rules I think I am allowed to make this link. If I am wrong then please delete this post. This spear confirms my opinion that it is African and to be more precise Western Sahara. The spear in the link is labeled as Asian. In my opinion it is Mauritanian, African anyway. shame I have no money left. http://www.michaeldlong.net/Ko-Bespo.../E3/131/103807

24th November 2006, 08:10 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Well done Tim, I saw this...and liked it alot....fortunately I changed priorities and blew the budget elsewhere (I'm not comfortable bidding against fellow formites....hence 'fortunately). I felt it was more likely Indian, .....but where ever it came from...it's a very nice spear.....congrats... Any idea as to the function of the two rings......perhaps to hold the ends of a strap/rope for carrying purposes

24th November 2006, 08:57 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	The rings are only free to move up untill the middle section swelling or handle. I could bet my last £ it is African, there is a challenge for you all .

25th November 2006, 01:10 AM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi, Tim....am I right in saying that lances often had a form of sling ... to take alot of its weight. I was thinking that the rings were moveable, fixing points for some sort of sling. Even if the lance/spear was carried on foot.....when 'advancing with spears extended....with the sling over your shoulder (spear holding side) it would take a lot of the weight of the spear from the warrior..... would not impede the use of the spear in a thrusting action, due to the sliding rings, but would still have the weight to inflict devastating wounds. I would love for this to be African.......still think its Indo-Persian

25th November 2006, 11:04 AM	#7
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Tim My spear is hollow with some type of bead rolling around inside the shaft section weight maybe 2lbs a thrower for sure.

25th November 2006, 04:08 PM	#9
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	There are some good pictures in, A Tirri's book. The shapes do have some similarity. I base my opinion more on the decoration. It is possible that it could be, as I said from the wild tribes of the North East Frontier where the subtle or what some might say more primitive decoration would be apt. But even there I think the blade looks a little more African to me. The decoration on the shaft reminds me of some of the markings seen on Congo spear shafts in particular.

25th November 2006, 04:22 PM	#10
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	I agree.....the spearhead does look African.......but there seems to be an Indo-persian influence with primative decoration. If African....could it not be from the North ? would explain the 'influences'....... and seeing as the Toureg are famed for their all metal lance/spears .......

25th November 2006, 05:27 PM	#11
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Without doubt there are plenty of weapons in Africa influenced by Indo/Persian and Arab forms. Take the Mahdist period weaponry, this may even be from that epoch.

25th November 2006, 08:31 PM	#12
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	The brass lump near the blade must be to stop the target accepting too much of the lance when you think of the force it could deliver.

26th November 2006, 11:19 AM	#13
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Could this be a "saintie" like weapon? surely it is too long and is not made to parry with. I still think the decoration is too informal for Indian work. But I know very little about old Indian weapons.

29th November 2006, 05:56 PM	#15
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	[QUOTE=Tim The spear in the link is labeled as Asian. In my opinion it is Mauritanian, African anyway. shame I have no money left. Don't be sad Tim I to suffer from the same disease it's called Fundsarlow syndrome and it affects many of us here on the forum Lew

29th November 2006, 06:53 PM	#16
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	A most ghastly affliction. I hope some medicine arrives on my work bench very soon.

1st December 2006, 10:12 PM	#17
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	TAKE A LOOK IN STONES PAGE 213 FIGURE 264 IT IS A SPEAR FROM TIBET REFERED TO AS DUNG. THE INFORMATION ON SOME OF ITS USES IS INTERESTING AND IT HAS THE CARRING STRAP. I DON'T THINK YOURS IS FROM TIBET AND HAVE SEEN EXAMPLES OF THE SHORT SPEARS WITH CARRING STRAP IN AFRICA THEY DO SEEM TO BE ASSOCIATED WITH RIDEING EITHER CAMMELS OR HORSE. ALSO LOOK AT STONES PAGE 536 FIGURE 685 FOR ANOTHER STRANGE SHORT SPEAR TYPE WEAPON. Last edited by VANDOO; 1st December 2006 at 10:36 PM.

9th December 2007, 09:16 PM	#18
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Mandara? Brought this back up after some cross referencing. Look at the blade in this post by Fernando. The blade form, decoration and brass work do have a remarkable similarity. It would be nice if this was so as I have just ebay'd what I hope is a very nice 33" blade Mandara sword. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=mandara

9th December 2007, 11:38 PM	#19
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,948	I think Vandoo's note on the carrying rings is very well placed, especially in noting these are also present in African spears as well as Tibet. I will say that my first inclination in looking at the decorative bulbs on the spear were that they seem Indian. This is much in accordance with David's notes and the illustrations he posted. I do agree however, that this work is pretty rough for the work from India, even the village work, which I think avoided such elaborate decoration. I would submit that possibly this is African work, intended to replicate such weapons from India. There seems of course considerable influence in many African weapons that certainly derives from the Subcontinent, and is most likely associated in degree with the profound trade in key centers such as Zanzibar. The Red Sea trade of course also entered through Ethiopian centers which also carried weapons from Indian sources. It would not seem unlikely that an African smith seeking to emulate the much finer quality spears of India might produce such work. This is not to suggest that African smiths were necessarily less adept, as overall the weapons of Africa often reflect beautiful workmanship. However, like all skilled work, the range of quality varies greatly. It seems also that the diamond geometric with central dots is something I've seen on African weapons. All best regards, Jim

10th December 2007, 02:37 PM	#20
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Another thread showing my Sang or Sangu. Some similarities. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=sang

10th December 2007, 08:49 PM	#21
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Intesting Bill. Sort of what one would expect from India? Last edited by Tim Simmons; 10th December 2007 at 09:06 PM.

10th December 2007, 10:05 PM	#22
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Bill, I was just about to retire for the night when I had a thought. Does your sang like thing really look Indo/Persian? I am not completely sure. The work reminds me of some Mauritanian metalwork. I can show metalwork from Africa that might make us change our minds but it will have to wait for now.

10th December 2007, 10:13 PM	#24
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Ha ha!!

11th December 2007, 07:59 PM	#26
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	When I first opened this post and looked at the photos before reading my thoughts were Africa, thats where my bet would be.

14th November 2008, 05:33 PM	#27
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Two Mandara blades Took some time. Attached Images