Javanese machete??

[Henk]

I picked up some new stuff I would like some info/opinions about so I will show them in some new threads.
The first one is a machete that I cann't place very well. I looked in the book by Van Zonneveld and found some possibilities. For me it is a javanese piece.
Parang Bengkok, Ruding Lengon (I guess not) or most likely Telabuna.

[tom hyle]

Telabuna; now there is an interesting word
This bears a striking resemblance to a type of (Southern?) European bill. Frankly, I think I would've guessed that, if I came across it. Can't tell from photos; for all I can see the handle could be darkly patinaed ash wood. Even the long tapered ferule would not be completely out of place on European gardening tools, though it's not what is usually seen on bill-knives (AFAIK; there is such a profusion). Where did you get it? Why do you think it's Asian? Is the wood more clearly identifiable in person? BTW, an inlaid edge, forged surfaces, and a fibrous/layery wrought iron body would also be fairly typical of earlier/quality European work swords (in sharp contrast to the modern European military swords). Is the tang emergent at the but t(probably close to conclusive if it is? Not much help if it isn't.....)?

[Henk]

Tom,

Any input is welcome. It is hard to see if it is forged. I cann't discover any signs of forging. The ferule shows spurs of filework. The blade is patinated and used and very sharp. I wouldn't like to get a blow with it. It is a very heavy thing. About the wood I have no idea. It has a nice grain. The pics show the wood just as it is. The wood is placed into the ferule and probaly, if there is a tang, it is mounted like an axe.

I bought it on an estate. I saw it and had something like, it is heavy and looks good and old. Not to expensive, so a nice object to examine. The shape was a bit kudi like. So my first idea was Asian. Also a bit the grain of the wood did give me that idea. When I buy something like that I have two books that I consider as the books that might give an answer. Stone and Van Zonneveld. In the book by Van Zonneveld I found drawings of weapons with a similar shape of the blade. The Telabuna came mostly in that direction, so that is my thought about Asia, Java.

However, I do agree with you that the ferule doesn't look Asiatic. Your european thought isn't such an odd one after all.

Well Tom, lets wait if anybody can tell us what it is.

[zelbone]

This looks very similar to a Filipino working bolo called an espading. It's a bolo used for cutting sugar cane. Usually, the blade wouldn't be so bulbous on the side with the hook and would be more parallel with the other side. To use an espading, you would hack at the cane with the blade and then use the hook part to cut any remaining fibers of the cane if it the blade didn't slice completely through. On your example, it doesn't quite look like a true espading, but it could be a different variation from what I've seen. Like I said, the blades on typical espadings are usually more parallel. The hilt also doesn't look typical as well. Your example has a hilt that looks like it was turned where most espading hilts are your typical ovoid or octagonal profiled hilts found on most bolos in the Philippines. Interesting piece.

[tom hyle]

Yeah, the turned handle seems European, but it's a thing seen in SE Asia (Is parang patani the one that looks like a panabas? Think of those). Likewise, the blade seems to be exactly a (southern?) European bill knife. If there were a piened tang I'd say "game over" or whatever, but there's not, and though that could go either way, it leans to Asia. I feel much the same with the long tapering ferule; it could go either way; it's seen on European gardening tools, but not usually a cutting sword, while it's not entirely dis similar to S PI sword ferules.

[Henk]

A parang patani is a possibility. I found this thread from DA Henkel. http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000598.html

One of those parangs, the seventh one shows some similarity.

[Kiai Carita]

Originally Posted by Henk

I picked up some new stuff I would like some info/opinions about so I will show them in some new threads.
The first one is a machete that I cann't place very well. I looked in the book by Van Zonneveld and found some possibilities. For me it is a javanese piece.
Parang Bengkok, Ruding Lengon (I guess not) or most likely Telabuna.

In my village this is called either 'arit gedhe' (big sicle) or 'bendho'... It is commonly used in Java to cut firewood and other round the forest-garden-chores. Usually the hilt is not as nice as this one. It is definitely a peasant's utilitarian weapon, usually forged locally by pandhe.

Salam.

[Henk]

Kiai,

Thanks for your answer. An arit gedhe (big sicle) as you called it, is certainly true. But a bendho is, if I'm not mistaken, more a golok axe shaped machete. If you think a piece of metal in the hole that forms the sickle, it becomes an axe shaped weapon. But as you said, forged localy by a pandhe you can have your wishes, I suppose. If I look in the book by Van Zonneveld I see a drawing of a bendo in what I suppose is a traditional one, just like the one I own. If this particular weapon is a bendo, as you say, may I presume that there are more varities in the shape of a bendo?

Thanks and regards, Henk

[Kiai Carita]

[QUOTE=Henk]Kiai,

If I look in the book by Van Zonneveld I see a drawing of a bendo in what I suppose is a traditional one, just like the one I own. If this particular weapon is a bendo, as you say, may I presume that there are more varities in the shape of a bendo?

Yes, Sir, there are basically two variations of the bendho one like this photo and the other without a pointed tip. If without the pointed tip it is never called an arit gedhe, always a bendho. The ones with a tip like this photo are often called a bendho around and West of Yogyakarta, but never East of Solo. If the bottom has an axe-like part then it is called a kudi, rare, usually with a longer handle.

Regards,
Kiai Carita.

[Henk]

Thanks Kiai,

Through this wonderful forum we learn every day from each other!!!

Regards, Henk

[Ian]

Henk:

This is an example of the golok form of bendo, similar to the one shown in van Zonneveld.

The blade is very heavy and thick, with spine thickness 3/8 inch at the hilt and tapering to 3/16 inch about a 1/4-inch before the tip. The blade length is 9 1/4 inches and maximum width is 2 1/4 inches. The hilt is nicely carved.

The scabbard has been repaired and resembles the style shown in van Zonneveld.

This one is probably from Java.

Ian.

[marto suwignyo]

Kiai yth

I wonder if you could help me with something.

You tell us that the agricultural tool with a recurved tip, and known as a bendho around Jogja is never called this east of Solo .

Now, when I live in Java, my house is in Palur, which is east of Solo, and we call the tool shown by Henk a bendho, and we also call another tool that is essentially the same as a European billhook or pruning hook, a bendho.The tool that we call a bendho is similar to Henk`s tool, but without the swelling , the blade being only recurved, this one sometimes gets called a parang, which of course it is, as parang is generic, and bendho is specific.

My wife comes from Pare, near Kediri, and that`s a long way east of Solo. I showed her the picture of Henk`s bendho and asked what she would call it. She told me that she would call it bendho. I then got my own bendho from the garden shed ( this one came from Boyolali, and looks like a European billhook or pruning hook) and asked her what that was called in Pare. Again she told me it was a bendho. I am inclined to believe that her identifications are accurate, as her father owned a business which amongst other things, produced tools commercially, and my wife herself once owned a dairy farm.

Neither I nor my wife have ever heard this tool shown by Henk, referred to as an "arit gedhe", and our understanding of an arit gedhe is of something quite different to what Henk has shown. Again, neither of us know of a tool called a kudhi, but I did show the picture of Henk`s tool to a friend who comes from Jember, and who has lived in both Bogor and Pamekesan, and he immediately identified it as a kudhi. The tool with a curved blade and a little axe-like projection near the handle I have only seen a couple of times, and my notes tell me that it is called a "luke"(pron:lukeh).

I understand very well that the names of things can change from village to village, so in order to help improve my own understanding of Javanese terminology I would greatly appreciate it if you could tell me :-

1) the approximate location of the place where Henk`s tool is known as an "arit gedhe".

2) what a tool that looks like Henk`s tool, but without the swelling in the blade---that is, something like a European billhook or pruning hook---would be called in this place.

3) the approximate location where the tool with the axe-like projection near the handle is known as a "kudhi".

Please understand:- this is in no way a challenge to you; I understand that you are Javanese, and I believe that you would know exactly what things are called in your own village. My enquiry is simply to assist my own understanding of the variations in usage of the Javanese language.

Thank you for your assistance.

[marto suwignyo]

Ian, in my area we would never call this a bendho, we would call it a golok. For us, a tool must have a recurved blade to be a bedho.

Incidentally, I keep referring to these things as "tools", which of course they are, but in earlier times there were weapons that took the same or similar forms. You can see examples of these in the Musium Radyopustoko in Solo.

[Ian]

Originally Posted by marto suwignyo

Ian, in my area we would never call this a bendho, we would call it a golok. For us, a tool must have a recurved blade to be a bedho.

Marto:

Thanks for clarifying the name for this tool. I, too, called this particular example a golok when I acquired it. Then I found a nearly identical chopper in v. Zonneveld (p. 34) which he identified as a bendo from West Java. So, even Mr. v. Z. can make a mistake, or perhaps there is a regional variation in terms that differs from your own experience. In any case, it is very confusing for someone from a different culture trying to understand these terms from a distance.

I would find this variable terminology often when I traveled in SE Asia some years ago. The distinction between badik-sewar-rencong-tumbak and a few other knives just left my head hurting. Every time I thought I had these sorted out, a local person would throw in a completely different interpretation of which was which.

People such as yourself who can bring some direct experience of what names are applied to these various weapons/tools is very helpful. Thanks.

Ian.

PS: When you speak of a "recurved" blade, are you referring to the back of the blade or the cutting edge? When we discuss Indian and Islamic blades, such as the yataghan or sossun pattah, "recurved" is usually applied to the shape of the spine of the blade.

[marto suwignyo]

The variation in names of things from place to place in Java is very confusing sometimes, this was precisely what I was trying to clarify with my questions to Kiai Carita. I really only know Java,and not even all of that, but only where I and my wife have lived, but I imagine you could find a similar situation in other parts of South East Asia.
The chopper shown on P.34 of van Zonneveld`s book does have similar handle to the golok you have shown, but these choppers have entirely different blades to the type of blade on your example. In fact, when I saw that picture in the book it surprised me that it was called a bendho in West Java. van Zonneveld worked from old sources, and maybe at the time the books he worked from were published the names he gives for things in his book were correct, but there are quite a lot of things in the van Zonneveld book where the names now used are different from the names given in the book. Its not that Albert van Zonneveld made a mistake, its just that the times have changed, or the thing is known as something else in a different place, or even that the original author that van Zonneveld drew on was misinformed.
Kiai Carita took the correct approach when he said "in my village it is called such and such". In another village twenty kilometers down the road it might be called something else entirely, which to me means that if we want to give names to things we need to qualify the name by saying:- in this place, at this time, this article is known as a whatever.

[Kiai Carita]

[QUOTE=marto suwignyo]Kiai yth

Marto Suwignyo asks:

1) the approximate location of the place where Henk`s tool is known as an "arit gedhe".

2) what a tool that looks like Henk`s tool, but without the swelling in the blade---that is, something like a European billhook or pruning hook---would be called in this place.

3) the approximate location where the tool with the axe-like projection near the handle is known as a "kudhi".

...

Kiai Carita answers: Firstly I should have not used the word never, never this never that East of Solo or West of Yogya...as you say names of everyday objects can vary from village to village and also, from generation to generation.

1. I have heard and used the word arit gedhe to refer to that blade in the area of the Madiun residency and even Wonogiri.

2. Even without the belly it would still be either bendho or arit gedhe. Arit gedhe is not arit-sing-gedhe.

3 The location of the kudi, I think you might find in remote West and East Jawa, but most definitely in the PAST. Visit areas under influence of Demak in the 15th century and you will see this tool used by many people. The small, pusaka version of a kudi is called a kujang.

Hormat
Kiai Carita.

[Kiai Carita]

[QUOTE=Ian]Marto:

Thanks for clarifying the name for this tool. I, too, called this particular example a golok when I acquired it. Then I found a nearly identical chopper in v. Zonneveld (p. 34) which he identified as a bendo from West Java. So, even Mr. v. Z. can make a mistake, or perhaps there is a regional variation in terms that differs from your own experience. In any case, it is very confusing for someone from a different culture trying to understand these terms from a distance.

Kiai Carita says: in my travels to Pasundan region in the past I have never heard the word bendho. It sounds too funny and alien to the Sundanese ear, it is a javanese word and a javanese tool not really used in the West of Java. A Western writer with a Javanese informer might say it is a Sundanese bendho but that would be the Javanese name ... Sundanese prefer goloks. The goloks of Ciwedei are of superior quality to most bendho made in Java. Goloks have important martial usage as well.

[Henk]

Ian,

I really understand that you are a bit confused. Don't worry, so am I. The weapon you show is similar to the bendo in the book by Van Zonneveld. I have a similar one but the hilt is more a golok hilt. When I got my bendo, to give the thing at least a name, I thought it was a golok, but refering Van Zonneveld I found out it was a bendo.

But I'm very happy with the input Kiai and Marto are bringing up. I know that the names of weapons and knives, machetes(choppers) do vary in the Archipello and that names are used to point out a group of weapons/tools. Just like you said Marto, a parang is a general name for a chopper. Apparantly the name bendho or bendo could be a general name for a chopper as well. Van Zonneveld describes the bendo as a tool with an agrarian purpose. And this object that I'm showing could be very well an agrarian tool. The sickle formed tip looks excelent for pruning to me.

I was very surprised by the identification of "kudhi". Sure, it has a kudhi shape. But as far as I know a kudhi is described as a talismanic dagger for a priest. But as Kiai pointed out the pusaka type of a kudhi is called a kujang. May I presume that the small old version of a kudhi with a pamor blade, presented in the literature as a kudhi, that that description is not completely correct? and should be presented as a kujang?

Just like Ian, I'm getting a bit dizzy but it is a most interesting subject.
Marto with the reference of his wife with her background (my regards to the Mrs.) and the visions of Kiai.

Thanks, Henk

[tom hyle]

Interesting that the swelling seems to be thought of as distinctly SE Asian; I had considered it fairly distinctly European; interesting if we ever find out which way that spread.
BTW, The term recurve is AFAIK being used incorrectly here. A recurved blade is not one that curves forward (is the thinking that this is a "re"verse curve?), but one that curves one way, and then the other, usually forward and then back (ie curves and then re-curves; to re-do means to do again; curves then curves again; note that a sword is spoken of as curving; the verb form is used, even though it is not actually performing action, but just sitting there with a curve; seems odd to me suddenly, and perhaps to non-native readers of English, but language often is odd, and this usage is not limitted to weapons); thus the cutting edge of this sword is techincally recurved, though in the opposite of the usual manner; more normally recurved edges are on kukuri, for instance. More swords have a recurved cutting edge than an overall recurved shape. More usually the swelling this implies is toward the tip (ala kukuri), rather than toward the base of the blade, as here, but then that may just be of examples I've seen, and may be influenced by the prevalence of weapons over tools in my sampling of foreign blades........

[Ian]

Tom:

I've always been a little confused by the use of "recurved." Whether the term applies to the cutting edge or the overall shape of the blade. Is there a standard "recurved" shape and a mirror-image "reverse-recurved" shape? And it is interesting to note whether the resulting blade is usually forward-weighted (towards the tip), as seems to be the fashion for most standard recurved blades, or back-weighted (towards the hilt) as may be seen here with a reverse-recurved blade. You raise some good questions about terminology and the function of these various shapes.

Those for whom English is not their first language must get some amusement from the way we spend time sorting through word definitions and syntax.

Ian.

Originally Posted by tom hyle

Interesting that the swelling seems to be thought of as distinctly SE Asian; I had considered it fairly distinctly European; interesting if we ever find out which way that spread.
BTW, The term recurve is AFAIK being used incorrectly here. A recurved blade is not one that curves forward (is the thinking that this is a "re"verse curve?), but one that curves one way, and then the other, usually forward and then back (ie curves and then re-curves; to re-do means to do again; curves then curves again; note that a sword is spoken of as curving; the verb form is used, even though it is not actually performing action, but just sitting there with a curve; seems odd to me suddenly, and perhaps to non-native readers of English, but language often is odd, and this usage is not limitted to weapons); thus the cutting edge of this sword is techincally recurved, though in the opposite of the usual manner; more normally recurved edges are on kukuri, for instance. More swords have a recurved cutting edge than an overall recurved shape. More usually the swelling this implies is toward the tip (ala kukuri), rather than toward the base of the blade, as here, but then that may just be of examples I've seen, and may be influenced by the prevalence of weapons over tools in my sampling of foreign blades........

[marto suwignyo]

Firstly let me talk about the word "recurved".
I could well be wrong in the way I have used this word to convey my intent. To me, a "recurved blade" is a blade that is curved, and has its cutting edge on the inside of the curve.

The Shorter Oxford English Dictionary defines recurve as:-

"To turn back in a curve upon its previous direction. Hence, recurved or bent back; having a backwards curve."

I understand this as meaning that if an object is straight, and one end is turned back towards the direction of the other end, it is recurved.There is no necessity for a curve to exist, prior to a second curve being formed, for a thing to possess the quality of being "recurved". In simple terms, "recurved" has the same meaning in the English language as "curved", but probably expresses the degree of curve by requiring a recurved thing to bend back towards its beginning position.

Tom Hyle uses the khukri as an example of a recurved blade, and up to ten minutes ago I would have thought of a khukri as having a recurved blade, in that its second curve moves back towards the level of its first curve. But I now think that I would have been wrong. The correct meaning of the word does not seem to be this at all.

So, as I said, my use of recurved to describe a blade that is simply curved, but perhaps lacking the degree of curve to make it recurved, is probably wrong, and for this imprecise use of English I apologise. English is a very difficult language. One could study it all one`s life and still learn something new each day. I have never looked at the dictionary meaning or "recurved" before, and Tom Hyle`s remarks forced me to check and see if was talking sense or nonsense. It wasn`t nonsense, but it was imprecise.

To clarify the form of the blade in what I know as a bendho:- the blade is straight, with a curve at its front end, and its cutting edge is on the inside of the curve.

KIAI yth

Thank you very much for your response to my query.

So, in Wonogiri, half an hour south of Solo, and in Madiun about one and a half hours east of Solo, this tool would be recognised as an "arit gedhe". Do you happen to know if it can be described as an "arit gedhe" in the area around Sragen?

Yes, I understand the distinction you are making between the name and the description of "arit gedhe" and "arit sing gedhe". However, what I know as an arit gedhe is in fact gedhe. Still, as we agree, names vary.

I find it interesting that you claim the small pusaka version of a kujang is called a kudhi.

Kudhis and kujangs are similar, and what I have found is that in Solo nobody makes any distinction between the two. An ahli tosan aji might, but ordinary people, craftsmen, dealers, tradespeople refer to kudhi, kujang, and in fact any other small,old, curved type blades as kudhis. This common usage may be wrong, but it is the way people right now refer to these things, in one specific location.
Similar situation with the "bendho" shown on page 34 of van Zonneveld. Since this discussion started I have shown this picture to four different people who are all Javanese. I don`t have any idea at all what the name for van Zonneveld`s "bendho" is, but the other four people I have shown it to all want to call it a kitchen knife----simply "piso".Maybe the only person who could give the exactly correct name to this thing is somebody who lives where it is used.

Anyway, back to the kudhi/kujang.
Kujangs are distinctly West Javanese, and there are several different shapes. Harsrinuksmo shows five ot six different shapes that he identifies as kujangs. He also shows several different shapes of kudhi. The kujangs look like the kudhis, and the kudhis look like the kujangs. Harsrinuksmo says that the difference is that kujangs are from West Java, kudhis are from Java and Madura, that is, to the east. He also says that a the base difference between the two is that a kudhi is a type of spear with a short shaft, while a kujang is something you hold with one hand.He shows a tool form of a kudhi, and this is exactly the shape of what I know as a bendho, but with that little axe-like projection we were talking about.This is a bit different to what I know as a luke, but it agrees exactly with what Kiai Carita knows as a kudhi.

To summarise:- if we can believe Harsinuksmo, kujangs are single hand weapons that come from West Java and that are used with one hand; kudhis are short spears that come from Java and Madura; but the tool form of a kudhi has a curved blade, sharpened on the inside of the curve, and with an axe-like projection near the handle, and is to all intents and purposes a bendho with a lump.

The name bendho is not a generic name for something: it is a specific name for a specific tool but this tool does have some variations, just as a chisel, or a sickle , has variations, however, some people will call a bendho a parang, because parang is a generic name for machete type tools.

I think all this just goes to show how very difficult it can be to try to put exactly correct names on any things from this part of the world. I`m not only talking about tools and weapons, but about anything at all. If we want to name something, the name should also include time and place.

[Kiai Carita]

Originally Posted by marto suwignyo

Kudhis and kujangs are similar, and what I have found is that in Solo nobody makes any distinction between the two. An ahli tosan aji might, but ordinary people, craftsmen, dealers, tradespeople refer to kudhi, kujang, and in fact any other small,old, curved type blades as kudhis. This common usage may be wrong, but it is the way people right now refer to these things, in one specific location.

Comment: The people of Solo (and under Solo) do not generally use kudi, which is more a pasisir tool. Utilitarian kudi are generally not pamor. I have never seen a kudi with pamor but have heard of it. I have however seen a kudi with a short handle. As to kujang there is much more than is in the Ensiklo-keris B.H.

Originally Posted by marto suwignyo

Similar situation with the "bendho" shown on page 34 of van Zonneveld. Since this discussion started I have shown this picture to four different people who are all Javanese. I don`t have any idea at all what the name for van Zonneveld`s "bendho" is, but the other four people I have shown it to all want to call it a kitchen knife----simply "piso".Maybe the only person who could give the exactly correct name to this thing is somebody who lives where it is used.

I would find it hard to believe that a Sundanese would use the word bendo because to the Sundanese ear the word would sound funny. I think VZ made a mistake.

Originally Posted by marto suwignyo

The name bendho is not a generic name for something: it is a specific name for a specific tool but this tool does have some variations, just as a chisel, or a sickle , has variations, however, some people will call a bendho a parang, because parang is a generic name for machete type tools.

If the bendho has a beak on top (to make it possible to be named an arit-gedhe) it can not be named a parang. However without the beak it could be a parang or a golok but that would not be the precise name. A parang is lighter like a sugarcane cutter, a Rwanda machette like in the films. A golok is finely made to function as a martial weapon as well as a utilitarian chopper. The bendho is the most humble and is not a martial weapon.

Originally Posted by MARTO SUWIGNYO

I think all this just goes to show how very difficult it can be to try to put exactly correct names on any things from this part of the world. I`m not only talking about tools and weapons, but about anything at all. If we want to name something, the name should also include time and place.

This is very true. For instance the word yoni in the keris world in Jawa now means the esoteric powers in the keris. It used to mean the female counterpart of the lingga(m). But a Solo prince used the word yoni in a seminar in the 80's and all followed suit, this story is in the Ensikeris.

....Marto, I live around 30 km from Sragen and the dalangs from my village perform in Sragen and vice versa. Around Sragen people know arit gedhe and also they should in Palur. Maybe, your wife, as a nice girl, never went to villages and forests or the kebun to collect firewood for if she did, she would have needed her arit gedhe and she would sometimes call it a bendho too. It is a desa tool. In the kota it is rarely needed.

Hormat,
K. Carita

[marto suwignyo]

Attention Moderators

In the post of 27th. June, by Kiai Carita, the quote panel holds both my previous post, and additional remarks interspersed with my remarks.

Could you please clarify if this is correct usage of the quote panel facility.

If it is, I am afraid that I find this style of discussion a little confusing.

Thank you for your assistance.

[Ian]

Marto:

You raise a good point, but I think that sometimes the formatting of posts is unfamiliar to many people.

If you use the "Quote" button at the bottom of each post to reply in a thread, it will generate the material within that post and attribute it to the person who posted the comments.

The "tags" that appear before and after the quoted material look like this, except I have replaced the square brackets [ ] with curly brackets { } so that you can see the structure of the vB code (otherwise the code would be translated and you would see the quote as it usually appears).

{QUOTE=marto suwignyo}Quoted material appears here in italics to indicate it is not regular discussion material.{/QUOTE}

If anybody else types new material between the two "tags," it will be included in the quoted format -- which might confuse the reader about who said what. I think this is what Kiai did in the post you refer to, but he did separate his comments by prefacing them with "Comment:" so it would not appear that he had changed your words. Nevertheless, still confusing perhaps.

The way to avoid this confusion and have interspersed comments appear between the actual quoted text is to use the "tags" above and customize the formatting like this. Again, I am using curly brackets { } to illustrate the code, you need to replace those with square brackets [ ] when you use this method.

Click "Quote" to initiate the reply to a given post.

{QUOTE=marto suwignyo}Place the first part of the quote you wish to reply to after the "start tag," as already provided by the "Quote" formatting, and insert the "end tag" after the material you wish to respond to.{/QUOTE}

Type your comments to the first quote here.

Insert the "start tag" here for the next section of quoted material {QUOTE=author's name}. Follow this with the second piece of quoted material, and end it with the "end tag."{/QUOTE}

Insert your comments to the second quote here.

And so on, building as many quoted sections and replies as you wish. I think this method makes it easier for the reader to distinguish the quoted material from the responses, and I hope that the brief decription above helps those who are unfamiliar with how the formatting codes work.

It is okay to remove pieces of the quoted material that you do not wish to respond to, but it is customary to indicate that material has been removed by inserting three periods in a row "..." (referred to in English as an ellipsis) where such material has been deleted from the original quote. Again, in the interests of clarity, it is good practice to show what you have left out of the original quote in this manner. Also, it can help avoid the author of the original quote being upset because you have managed to change his meaning or left out what he thinks are the most important points in what he said.

Clarity and accuracy when quoting others are important to good communication and for avoiding potential unpleasantries.

Thanks again to Marto for raising this question, and I hope these comments are helpful.

Ian.

----------------------------------------

To show how this looks in a thread, here is the above example where the curly brackets are replaced by the correct format with square brackets.

Originally Posted by marto suwignyo

Place the first part of the quote you wish to reply to after the "start tag," as already provided by the "Quote" formatting, and insert the "end tag" after the material you wish to respond to.

Type your comments to the first quote here.

Insert the "start tag" here for the next section of quoted material

Originally Posted by marto suwignyo

Follow this with the second piece of quoted material, and end it with an "end tag."

Insert your comments to the second quote here.

[Mark]

I edited Kiai's post to separate out the quotes.

I have also put your very helpful step-by-step tutorial on quoting, with a little editing to make it generic, as a sticky above.

[marto suwignyo]

Thanks a lot Mark, and Ian.

That makes it much easier to follow.

[marto suwignyo]

KIAI yth
Yes, the distinction in terminology could be between usage of a term in a village environment, and usage in a town. As you remark, there is little need for a bendho in a town, but we don`t live in town, we`re in the perumnas, and probably most of our neighbours do have bendho, which we all call bendho. Big ones, small ones, ones with rounded tips, ones with broken tips, ones with pointed tips. If it is a chopper with a curve and the edge on the inside of the curve, it gets called bendho, except by a few recalcitrants who call all big choppers of any type" parang". Possibly not correct, but this is the way language is used.

My wife does have a rural background, but she was never a gatherer of wood and water; I myself have never lived outside of an urban or suburban environment.

I was particularly interested in Sragen area, because I have several workers who come from the villages around Sragen, and in an earlier post you mentioned that you came from near Sragen, however 30km is not all that near, and there is still room for variation.

This usage variation has me interested, and I will follow through on it when I have the opportunity.

In earlier times the bendho was used as a weapon. Examples of weapon quality bendho can be found in the Musium Radyopustoko. Raffles shows a picture of what he calls a "bandul", but what is shown is exactly what we call a bendho. Possibly he meant "bandol" but its not really a bandol. Attached is a photo of a bendho made by Empu Suparman in the early 1990`s; the owner has told me that the head at the point is a representation of the rojomolo.I have heard that in old times a very big bendo was used as an implement of execution in the Surakarta kraton.

Thank you for your charmingly phrased input.

[marto suwignyo]

Oh yes, something else that I almost forgot to mention, but first, to all those who may read this and who will undoubtedly be bored senseless by discussion of language in a Forum supposedly devoted to discussion of weaponry, I most humbly apologise for my part in the generation of this boredom.

In Modern Javanese, that is Javanese as it has developed since the 17th century, the word "yoni" does not, and never did mean the female counterpart of the lingga. Additionally,the word "yoni" is not a part of the Indonesian lexicon.

In Modern Javanese the meaning of "yoni" is "to have magical power, or supernatural power, or devine power"; it can have secondary meanings of "excellent", "distinguished", "sacred", or "to have high knowledge". Usage of the word is literary, it is not a part of ngoko or Krama Inggil.

In Old Javanese one of the meanings of "yoni" was "uterus or womb", but it had alternate meanings of "place of birth", and "origin", it also could be used to mean "perfect".

The word "yoni" has its origin in Sanscrit where it has well over a dozen meanings, including "vulva, womb, birthplace".

The entry for "yoni" in Ensiklopedi is clear enough, and it most certainly does not carry the implications attributed to it by The Most Honoured Kiai. It is very difficult for me to understand how a native speaker of Indonesian could give the interpretation to Pak Bambang`s text that has been given to it by Kiai Carita, whom we all know lives in a Javanese village, 30 km from Sragen.

[Billman]

Hi

Just joined the forum, so a few years late in replying to this post. However, all information is potentially useful - so here is my contribution... Based on my collecting of mostly European billhooks for over 40 years, and a collection of some 4000 + from over 20 countries....

A sickle is generally taken to be a tool to cut grass-like vegetation, and a billhook for woody growth. But hybrid tools for cutting heavy grasses, e.g rushes for thatching, or small wood, e.g osiers for basket making, also exist. So is a small heavy curved sickle really a billhook, or vice versa??

In France we find 'faucillon' or 'faucille à bois' - literally a sickle for wood. To compound matters further, although serpe is the general translation for billhook, dialect names such as gouet, goyarde, poudo, vousge (and many others) exist.

Many French words come from the latin - a faux can be a scythe, a sickle or a bilhook - usually an adjective describes its use, e.g. faux arboria (wood sickle = billhook) - french uses a similar format, a 'serpe de taiilandier' is a cooper's tool, called in some regions a cochoir or a cauchoir. A 'serpette à tailler' is a small pruning billhook, in some regions sickle shaped...

Americans often call a billhook a fascine knife - in the UK it is known as a bill, a hand bill, a hedging bill, a pruning bill, a broom hook, a spar hook etc depending upon usage and where it comes from....

Thus I guess there is no hard and fast rule ref 'arit gedhe' (big sickle) or 'bendho' - what one region call it may differ from another, the shape of the tool similarly (there are several hundred regional variations for French, English and Italian billhooks - not including sickles - one French manufacturer, Talabot, in their 1930's catalogue boasted they held patterns for over 3000, and would make any shape upon submission of a paper pattern or template)..

What hope then is there for a positive identification of what a tool is called or where it was made... Ditto tools that may have also been used as weapons....

If you have any images of locally made billhook type tools please post or send by PM - if you have a local name, and can ID the location of manufacturer or the usage, even better...

[Henk]

Billman,

Thank you for your contribution and identification of my javanese or even indian machete.
I googled on billhook. Never heard of that word before. Wow...... just selected pictures. And there it is.......