Info Needed On Tombak

Robert · 12th April 2018, 08:34 AM

Hello everyone, I just "accidentally" (long story) won this tombak on epray and now would like to learn something about it. I have no idea of its age or if it is just a tourist piece or was made as an actual weapon. As it has not arrived yet the only information that I have on it at the present time is that it is approximately 16 inches in length. Any and all information or comments on this item would be greatly appreciated.

Best,
Robert

kai · 12th April 2018, 09:26 AM

Hello Robert,

This looks like the real deal to me. I find many Indo spear heads very difficult to place as to origin, age, and quality - so take my comments with a grain of salt.

In short, I'd guess that this example is from Java, probably antique and of decent craftsmanship. Try to get some input from Alan by sending him a PM with a link to this thread.

The methuk (the round thingie at the base) seems to be forged seperately - have a close look at the pamor when it arrives. Also the end of the tang has been carefully twisted (not uncommon but rarely seen with recent low quality pieces).

The dapur/shape as well as the pamor seem to be of a fairly basic type. Regardless, surviving spears are not rarely family pusaka (these tend to be mounted though, at least on short hilts) or at least old pieces from the colonial era.

The main question will probably be how to remove the rust without loosing too much of the warangan staining. After thorough degreasing, I'd probably opt for soaking in (preferably fresh) pineapple juice with frequent work with a stiff plastic brush (return into the same small batch of juice so that the arsenic can keep staining the cleaned areas); you'll need to tackle the rust in the pitted areas by carefully loosening it with a fine needle, repeatedly. It is important to really remove all rust; otherwise, it will re-appear soon and compromise long-term preservation. Pics taken with flash can help to identify remaining rust not readily visible by the naked eye.

Regards,
Kai

A. G. Maisey · 12th April 2018, 01:43 PM

Yes, old, definitely pre-1850, probably a lot older.

Could be either Bali or Jawa, I lean towards Jawa, but I'd need it in my hands to be reasonably sure.

If it is an option, I'd go for a complete clean and restain, then mount it in what we call "golok" dress, ie, like a dagger.

If the clean & stain is not an option I'd go for oil and mechanical I think.

I don't like partial cleans as Kai suggests, I'd possibly give it a WD40 soak, followed by brushing with a stiff brush, plastic or bristle, then spend time under good light with magnification and a pick, I like a saddlers awl for this sort of thing. Little bits of steel wool on the end of a sate stick can clean smooth areas.

Robert · 12th April 2018, 01:58 PM

Hello Kai,
Thank you very much for your thoughts on this spear head and especially for the tips on the correct way of cleaning and preserving this piece. I have added two more photos, one showing the twisted end of the tang and the other showing the methuk (the round thingy at the base). These were the best that I could produce from the auction photos using the photo editor I have. I have always wanted one of these for my collection even though they are not Philippine in origin, (as the other 99% of it is) but every one that I found that I liked was always more than my limited funding would allow. Even though I have read about everything I could find on them here on the forum I still had no idea of how to tell an original from a tourist item, that is unless it was so poorly made that it was quite obvious it was never meant to be used for much more than a paperweight. I had seen this one listed and on a whim decided to use the "Best Offer" option and made a bid of 33% of the asking price wholly expecting the seller to either make a counter offer of a higher price or just ignore my offer completely. To my total amazement I instead received an invoice for payment. Apparently this piece was meant to be mine all along.

Thank you again and I will contact Alan as you have suggested.

Best,
Robert

kai · 12th April 2018, 02:25 PM

Hello Robert,

Quote:

Thank you very much for your thoughts on this spear head and especially for the tips on the correct way of cleaning and preserving this piece.

You're welcome!

Actually the culturally correct way would be as Alan suggests: Thoroughly cleaning the piece (including complete removal of the stain) and then restaining with warangan afterwards.

Quote:

I have added two more photos, one showing the twisted end of the tang and the other showing the methuk (the round thingy at the base). These were the best that I could produce from the auction photos using the photo editor I have.

I can't make out any pamor on the methuk; this usually allows to very if it is separate. We'll see once it arrives...

Quote:

I have always wanted one of these for my collection even though they are not Philippine in origin, (as the other 99% of it is) but every one that I found that I liked was always more than my limited funding would allow. Even though I have read about everything I could find on them here on the forum I still had no idea of how to tell an original from a tourist item, that is unless it was so poorly made that it was quite obvious it was never meant to be used for much more than a paperweight. I had seen this one listed and on a whim decided to use the "Best Offer" option and made a bid of 33% of the asking price wholly expecting the seller to either make a counter offer of a higher price or just ignore my offer completely. To my total amazement I instead received an invoice for payment. Apparently this piece was meant to be mine all along.

Congrats! Spears are difficult to sell for that very reason (only a few true aficionados) and the fully mounted ones in addition due to prohibitive shipping costs.

Quote:

I will contact Alan as you have suggested.

You crossed posts with him already...

Regards,
Kai

Robert · 12th April 2018, 02:37 PM

Hello Alan, Apparently you responded to my request for information while I was typing my reply to Kai. After hearing what you have added I am now extremely happy that I had taken the chance in purchasing this piece. I never expected it to be anywhere near as old as you believe it could possibly be. Do you by chance have a photo of the dress you are speaking of that you could post here as an example? Unfortunately a complete cleaning and re-staining in the traditional way is not an option for me at this time, that is unless you might like to take on this job yourself? I have done normal cleaning and etching, but would not what want to use this in my first attempt at this process.

Thank you very much for your most welcomed response to my request for information on this piece.

Best,
Robert

kai · 12th April 2018, 02:55 PM

Hello Alan,

Thanks for chiming in!

Quote:

If the clean & stain is not an option I'd go for oil and mechanical I think.

I don't like partial cleans as Kai suggests, I'd possibly give it a WD40 soak, followed by brushing with a stiff brush, plastic or bristle, then spend time under good light with magnification and a pick, I like a saddlers awl for this sort of thing. Little bits of steel wool on the end of a sate stick can clean smooth areas.

If the original stain is still fairly well preserved, I understand your preference going mechanical and gentle. Often this will preserve the original finish with only little of the stain removed (depending an the amount of rust being present). However, this leaves remnants of rust inside any pitting and would need very careful storage (like your soak in oil & wrap procedure).

OTOH, when there was ample rust (especially with pieces from Java and a fairly porous surface structure) and no warangan available, I've seen quite decent results from the simultaneous cleaning+staining in a bath of pineapple juice: Usually the staining got not noticeably degraded (sometimes it got way stronger than visible at the start though!) and the cleaned areas also received fresh staining which didn't appeared uneven. For those with no access to arsenic trioxide, the average result seems to be decent enough. If the staining is not acceptable one can move towards whitening the blade and warangan very quickly.

Is this - I assume - suboptimal result of simultaneous staining (with, say, average-quality blades) really so much inferior to the complete warangan approach? I never tried both approaches with the same blade (at least not when the soak seemed to yield any decent staining).

Regards,
Kai

David · 12th April 2018, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert

I could find on them here on the forum I still had no idea of how to tell an original from a tourist item, that is unless it was so poorly made that it was quite obvious it was never meant to be used for much more than a paperweight.

While i do see newly forged tombak from time to time on ePray i can't say that i have seen them being manufactured as tourist items. Maybe i need to get out more.

Sajen · 12th April 2018, 08:29 PM

Hello Robert,

I was watching this tomak, you get it for a very good price, congrats!

It seems that you got recently attracted to Indonesian blades.

I would follow Alans advice: " I'd possibly give it a WD40 soak, followed by brushing with a stiff brush, plastic or bristle, then spend time under good light with magnification and a pick, I like a saddlers awl for this sort of thing. Little bits of steel wool on the end of a sate stick can clean smooth areas."
But I don't like antique tombaks dressed as "golok", it's a typical Indonesian fashion, I like them mounted on a custom stand but this is my pure own opinion, others will like them presented the other way.
Attached are a few examples dressed as "golok" taken from the net.

Best regards,
Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 13th April 2018, 01:41 AM

This is actually a pretty fair old tombak Robert, in fact you've done quite well.

As for me doing it, that is not really practical, I live in Australia, and the type of job I do is far too expensive for a tombak like yours, Australian hourly rates are nowhere near Indonesian hourly rates, then there is shipping cost. But I would be prepared to guide you if you wished to attempt the job yourself.

I may be able to provide a pic of the type of dress I'm talking about, at the moment I do not have time to look for an image.

Kai, I no longer use pineapple juice for cleaning, the tinned stuff is rubbish, the stuff I can produce myself from fresh pineapple and then strain is too expensive and too much trouble. These days I use ordinary white cooking vinegar. It usually takes upwards of a week in vinegar to get a blade clean. I lift and brush and rinse once or twice a day during this soak.

The reaction you describe that occurs with some blades during the cleaning process is common, it usually happens with old blades and it would probably take place with Robert's tombak. The reason I dislike using this as a 'shortcut' clean + stain method is because there is invariably residual rust left on the blade that has been coloured and hidden by the stain. The finished job looks more or less OK, but it is only a short term fix that improves appearance, it does not get rid of all the rust and it does not provide the protection of a new, competent, stain job.

I use the word 'competent' because a lot of the commercial work done here in Jawa is very similar to the method you describe. In fact, most of the people who do stain work in Solo do not like it if you present them with an already cleaned blade to stain, simply because they take the inadequate shortcut method that you describe and then charge top price. I doubt that many collectors can tell the difference between a good, professional warangan job, and a 'quick fix'.

Treeslicer · 13th April 2018, 03:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

While i do see newly forged tombak from time to time on ePray i can't say that i have seen them being manufactured as tourist items. Maybe i need to get out more.

Why sell to a city souvenir shop owner for $X, or wait for tourists to show up at your perapen and sell to them for $2X, when you can sell direct to collectors on eBay for $4X plus shipping? The intent and quality are, however, the same. The developing entrepreneurship that Ann Dunham remarked upon in her dissertation has spread globally via the Internet. I'm especially impressed with the initiative of the guys who've started selling their roughly forged but unfinished keris w/gonjo blanks via eBay.

Robert, congrats on the pusaka tombak. It's a real beauty.

A. G. Maisey · 13th April 2018, 12:56 PM

Here are some images of tombak.

The pic showing a number of tombak mounted in 'stel golok' is a display in the Museum Radya Pustaka in Solo.

The tombak shown mounted on long shafts is a display in the Keris Museum in Solo.

In Javanese culture a tombak can have equal, or even greater importance as a pusaka than a keris. Many royal pusakas are tombak.

When tombak were actually used as weapons a shaft could be up to 4 or 5 meters in length, usual length for a levy was around 2 meters, only skilled specialists used the longer shafts, very often for no more than crowd control.

Tombak have been mounted as daggers for probably as long as there have been tombak. An ordinary man who could have been expected to be called up for duty by his lord in times of war would often remove the blade from his spear and mount it as a dagger for peacetime use. When called up for duty he would remount it as a spear or lance.

For about the last 100 years or so, alterations in ceiling heights and room sizes have seen many, if not most Javanese people who have pusaka tombak, remount those tombak on short display shafts or in stel golok, as a dagger.

It must be remembered that just as with keris, for a Javanese person it is only the blade that has spiritual value or as pusaka, or for any other cultural reason. Shafts, scabbards, hilts are no more than dress that is changed according to societal needs or personal preference.

However, the blade only has spiritual value when it is of metal. Many poor people when called upon to perform levy duty for their lord would simply cut a length of bambu and slice an angled point on it. The Den Pasar Museum has just such a bambu tombak on display.

PS --- lousy pics, sorry, taken on the run with a P&S. The Radya Pustaka is one of those museum where they lend you a white cane as you enter, and both these museums are so full of reflections that it is virtually impossible to take decent shots with a camera that is unsupported by other equipment.

Robert · 15th April 2018, 04:26 AM

It has been a long day but I wanted to thank everyone for all the information and photos that you have shared with me so far. The tombak arrived today and after a wipe down with WD40 and scrubbing with a wash cloth I have taken the following photos. Please excuse the poor quality as I was rushed with the rain about to start. As can now be easily seen the methuk is indeed a separate piece from the rest of the blade and tang. I am not sure, but the white material between the methuk and the tang appears to be either thin cloth, some form of adhesive or possibly paper. To get a better idea of what this could be I will take a better look at it tomorrow with the help of a magnifying glass. As bed is calling and I must answer, I again thank everyone for responding to my questions.

Best,
Robert

12th April 2018, 08:34 AM	#1
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Info Needed On Tombak Hello everyone, I just "accidentally" (long story) won this tombak on epray and now would like to learn something about it. I have no idea of its age or if it is just a tourist piece or was made as an actual weapon. As it has not arrived yet the only information that I have on it at the present time is that it is approximately 16 inches in length. Any and all information or comments on this item would be greatly appreciated. Best, Robert Attached Images Last edited by Robert; 12th April 2018 at 01:17 PM.

12th April 2018, 08:29 PM	#9
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,779	Hello Robert, I was watching this tomak, you get it for a very good price, congrats! It seems that you got recently attracted to Indonesian blades. I would follow Alans advice: " I'd possibly give it a WD40 soak, followed by brushing with a stiff brush, plastic or bristle, then spend time under good light with magnification and a pick, I like a saddlers awl for this sort of thing. Little bits of steel wool on the end of a sate stick can clean smooth areas." But I don't like antique tombaks dressed as "golok", it's a typical Indonesian fashion, I like them mounted on a custom stand but this is my pure own opinion, others will like them presented the other way. Attached are a few examples dressed as "golok" taken from the net. Best regards, Detlef Attached Images

13th April 2018, 12:56 PM	#12
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Here are some images of tombak. The pic showing a number of tombak mounted in 'stel golok' is a display in the Museum Radya Pustaka in Solo. The tombak shown mounted on long shafts is a display in the Keris Museum in Solo. In Javanese culture a tombak can have equal, or even greater importance as a pusaka than a keris. Many royal pusakas are tombak. When tombak were actually used as weapons a shaft could be up to 4 or 5 meters in length, usual length for a levy was around 2 meters, only skilled specialists used the longer shafts, very often for no more than crowd control. Tombak have been mounted as daggers for probably as long as there have been tombak. An ordinary man who could have been expected to be called up for duty by his lord in times of war would often remove the blade from his spear and mount it as a dagger for peacetime use. When called up for duty he would remount it as a spear or lance. For about the last 100 years or so, alterations in ceiling heights and room sizes have seen many, if not most Javanese people who have pusaka tombak, remount those tombak on short display shafts or in stel golok, as a dagger. It must be remembered that just as with keris, for a Javanese person it is only the blade that has spiritual value or as pusaka, or for any other cultural reason. Shafts, scabbards, hilts are no more than dress that is changed according to societal needs or personal preference. However, the blade only has spiritual value when it is of metal. Many poor people when called upon to perform levy duty for their lord would simply cut a length of bambu and slice an angled point on it. The Den Pasar Museum has just such a bambu tombak on display. PS --- lousy pics, sorry, taken on the run with a P&S. The Radya Pustaka is one of those museum where they lend you a white cane as you enter, and both these museums are so full of reflections that it is virtually impossible to take decent shots with a camera that is unsupported by other equipment. Attached Images

15th April 2018, 04:26 AM	#13
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	It has been a long day but I wanted to thank everyone for all the information and photos that you have shared with me so far. The tombak arrived today and after a wipe down with WD40 and scrubbing with a wash cloth I have taken the following photos. Please excuse the poor quality as I was rushed with the rain about to start. As can now be easily seen the methuk is indeed a separate piece from the rest of the blade and tang. I am not sure, but the white material between the methuk and the tang appears to be either thin cloth, some form of adhesive or possibly paper. To get a better idea of what this could be I will take a better look at it tomorrow with the help of a magnifying glass. As bed is calling and I must answer, I again thank everyone for responding to my questions. Best, Robert Attached Images

12th April 2018, 09:26 AM	#2
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Hello Robert, This looks like the real deal to me. I find many Indo spear heads very difficult to place as to origin, age, and quality - so take my comments with a grain of salt. In short, I'd guess that this example is from Java, probably antique and of decent craftsmanship. Try to get some input from Alan by sending him a PM with a link to this thread. The methuk (the round thingie at the base) seems to be forged seperately - have a close look at the pamor when it arrives. Also the end of the tang has been carefully twisted (not uncommon but rarely seen with recent low quality pieces). The dapur/shape as well as the pamor seem to be of a fairly basic type. Regardless, surviving spears are not rarely family pusaka (these tend to be mounted though, at least on short hilts) or at least old pieces from the colonial era. The main question will probably be how to remove the rust without loosing too much of the warangan staining. After thorough degreasing, I'd probably opt for soaking in (preferably fresh) pineapple juice with frequent work with a stiff plastic brush (return into the same small batch of juice so that the arsenic can keep staining the cleaned areas); you'll need to tackle the rust in the pitted areas by carefully loosening it with a fine needle, repeatedly. It is important to really remove all rust; otherwise, it will re-appear soon and compromise long-term preservation. Pics taken with flash can help to identify remaining rust not readily visible by the naked eye. Regards, Kai

12th April 2018, 01:43 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Yes, old, definitely pre-1850, probably a lot older. Could be either Bali or Jawa, I lean towards Jawa, but I'd need it in my hands to be reasonably sure. If it is an option, I'd go for a complete clean and restain, then mount it in what we call "golok" dress, ie, like a dagger. If the clean & stain is not an option I'd go for oil and mechanical I think. I don't like partial cleans as Kai suggests, I'd possibly give it a WD40 soak, followed by brushing with a stiff brush, plastic or bristle, then spend time under good light with magnification and a pick, I like a saddlers awl for this sort of thing. Little bits of steel wool on the end of a sate stick can clean smooth areas.

12th April 2018, 01:58 PM	#4
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello Kai, Thank you very much for your thoughts on this spear head and especially for the tips on the correct way of cleaning and preserving this piece. I have added two more photos, one showing the twisted end of the tang and the other showing the methuk (the round thingy at the base). These were the best that I could produce from the auction photos using the photo editor I have. I have always wanted one of these for my collection even though they are not Philippine in origin, (as the other 99% of it is) but every one that I found that I liked was always more than my limited funding would allow. Even though I have read about everything I could find on them here on the forum I still had no idea of how to tell an original from a tourist item, that is unless it was so poorly made that it was quite obvious it was never meant to be used for much more than a paperweight. I had seen this one listed and on a whim decided to use the "Best Offer" option and made a bid of 33% of the asking price wholly expecting the seller to either make a counter offer of a higher price or just ignore my offer completely. To my total amazement I instead received an invoice for payment. Apparently this piece was meant to be mine all along. Thank you again and I will contact Alan as you have suggested. Best, Robert

12th April 2018, 02:37 PM	#6
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello Alan, Apparently you responded to my request for information while I was typing my reply to Kai. After hearing what you have added I am now extremely happy that I had taken the chance in purchasing this piece. I never expected it to be anywhere near as old as you believe it could possibly be. Do you by chance have a photo of the dress you are speaking of that you could post here as an example? Unfortunately a complete cleaning and re-staining in the traditional way is not an option for me at this time, that is unless you might like to take on this job yourself? I have done normal cleaning and etching, but would not what want to use this in my first attempt at this process. Thank you very much for your most welcomed response to my request for information on this piece. Best, Robert

13th April 2018, 01:41 AM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	This is actually a pretty fair old tombak Robert, in fact you've done quite well. As for me doing it, that is not really practical, I live in Australia, and the type of job I do is far too expensive for a tombak like yours, Australian hourly rates are nowhere near Indonesian hourly rates, then there is shipping cost. But I would be prepared to guide you if you wished to attempt the job yourself. I may be able to provide a pic of the type of dress I'm talking about, at the moment I do not have time to look for an image. Kai, I no longer use pineapple juice for cleaning, the tinned stuff is rubbish, the stuff I can produce myself from fresh pineapple and then strain is too expensive and too much trouble. These days I use ordinary white cooking vinegar. It usually takes upwards of a week in vinegar to get a blade clean. I lift and brush and rinse once or twice a day during this soak. The reaction you describe that occurs with some blades during the cleaning process is common, it usually happens with old blades and it would probably take place with Robert's tombak. The reason I dislike using this as a 'shortcut' clean + stain method is because there is invariably residual rust left on the blade that has been coloured and hidden by the stain. The finished job looks more or less OK, but it is only a short term fix that improves appearance, it does not get rid of all the rust and it does not provide the protection of a new, competent, stain job. I use the word 'competent' because a lot of the commercial work done here in Jawa is very similar to the method you describe. In fact, most of the people who do stain work in Solo do not like it if you present them with an already cleaned blade to stain, simply because they take the inadequate shortcut method that you describe and then charge top price. I doubt that many collectors can tell the difference between a good, professional warangan job, and a 'quick fix'.