Another Tulwar

LostDutchman · 6th August 2012, 05:49 PM

I had this piece walk into the coin shop this week. I know what I have learned from the internet about these.

Any opinions or information would be appreciated.

Matt

LostDutchman · 7th August 2012, 09:02 PM

I should have added that it's 94cm in total length.

Dom · 8th August 2012, 03:36 AM

Hi Matt
Tulwar very dark (?),
at least the blade has need ... of a good shot of elbow grease
the ferule in brass or copper, is very elegant

top of the handle, seems unusual
but we cannot distinguish its configuration

it's not really my field ...
also I'll expect to know what my colleagues will say

à +

Dom

Jim McDougall · 8th August 2012, 06:35 AM

What did you learn from the internet on these? Have you an opinion from that on the classification or period? These tulwar variations have been discussed here many times of course so Im curious what the internet at large has pertaining to these.

LostDutchman · 8th August 2012, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

What did you learn from the internet on these? Have you an opinion from that on the classification or period? These tulwar variations have been discussed here many times of course so Im curious what the internet at large has pertaining to these.

Ok,

Well this piece looks very similar to the Mughal tulwar I posted a few weeks ago in regards to the shape and curvature of the blade. That piece is late 18th century/early 19th century. The difference that I see is the pommel... the cross guard is very similar. This piece is longer. I'm going to guess it's from the same era. That is where I started...and ended before posting this thread.

Jim McDougall · 9th August 2012, 01:40 AM

Thank you for the input Matt. Actually Im glad you brought up the last tulwar you posted, which I responded to in some depth, and I wondered if the information was useful.
As you can see there is notable difference the hilt of this example, the typical curvature of most of these tulwar blades is similar. What is key in this case is the hilt, and particularly those flueret quillons. These are typically associated with Deccani weapons, however there were profound connections between those Sultanates and Mughal regions to the north, northwest. In this case the style hilt and the central floral device in the chowk suggests areas toward Afghanistan borders but probably from areas in Sind and Baluchistan. This may be of the type used by the Talpurs in Sind, and I think 19th century early to mid. There seems to be black from japanning on the hilt which seems unusual, but the dark patina under and on the blade seem to reflect genuine age.
It is of course quite subjective in trying to assess regions and period in tulwars, and estimations are based mostly on similar examples with some provenance when available. The tulwar itself was widely diffused and in a historically volatile and diverse climate through many centuries.

Jim

LostDutchman · 9th August 2012, 04:38 AM

As a coin dealer by trade I was taught not to "mess" with antiques. Is this the same in the sword collecting community? I think I see a wootz blade in hand... But the old surface rust makes it hard to be sure.

AJ1356 · 9th August 2012, 04:07 PM

To me the pommel looks like a newer addition. From the pictures the metal work is different from the rest and also the patina is of different shapes.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 9th August 2012, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LostDutchman

I had this piece walk into the coin shop this week. I know what I have learned from the internet about these.

Any opinions or information would be appreciated.

Matt

Salaams LostDutchman ~ I sent you two references to look at from your last Tulvar input... did you get a look at them? Forum library contains a resource far in exceess of the general Internet. In addition hidden within these pages are members who have forgotten more than I know about Indian weaponry through the ages...

Your idea about not messing with antiquity ie restoration is well accepted, however, I have to say a light clean up with a weak solution of vinegar(and wash down thoroughly with hot soapy water afterwards..and dry ~ "might" brighten up this piece. It could help reveal what is under the corrosion. It would look nice with its corresponding shield and scabbard. Thanks for posting.

will I get a reply this time?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Jim McDougall · 9th August 2012, 07:37 PM

Entirely agree with Ibrahiim, light cleaning is perfectly acceptable, especially to stabilize the condition and check any active corrosion. This must be done prudently and every effort made to avoid compromising the patination.

I think sometimes so much effort to look for wootz in some of these blades ends up with excessive cleaning on blades which are better left patinated (in my opinion). The blade on this example seems of form often seen with many Rajasthan produced blades which do not typically reveal wootz, but more standard forged material. There does seem to be some irregular areas in the overall patination which reveal some more recent rust and light corrosion.

The shape of the pommel on this seems to be a somewhat altered type similar to those on Afghan paluoars, and looks like some kind of sheeting added over the construction. These things all concur with AJs observations noting incongruities in the components, and I would think this could well be in place with arms which were refurbished for various levies and units during the Raj and the Anglo-Afghan wars especially the 1919 campaign.

Best regards,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 11th August 2012, 04:36 AM

Of any use?

LostDutchman · 11th August 2012, 03:15 PM

Ibrahiim I did look through the threads you posted with the last tulwar. Those were very impressive collections... as that was my first tulwar and this my second a lot of it went over my head but I did find it very interesting.

Jim I haven't had a chance to even think about trying anything yet. The wife and I have a newborn and a 2 year old so when I'm not at work I don't get much free time. Hopefully this weekend.

LostDutchman · 11th August 2012, 03:36 PM

This is what I'm seeing in hand. It's hard to capture with the camera and it's a little more noticeable in hand.

Jim McDougall · 12th August 2012, 03:56 AM

OK Matt, quite understandable with little ones....appreciate the acknowledgement and update, hope the info is useful. Asking direct questions here I think will surpass long internet searches...use our search function as well, naturally as opportunity is available.
Congrats on the kids, sounds like a wonderful family.

Jim

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 12th August 2012, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LostDutchman

This is what I'm seeing in hand. It's hard to capture with the camera and it's a little more noticeable in hand.

Salaams LostDutchman ~ Sink the blade in coke for a couple of days or step up to vinegar wash and a 00 grade paper ..finish off by thorough wash down and a rinse...then dry. Either way the gunge and rust should come off the blade to reveal possibly wootz underneath.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Norman McCormick · 12th August 2012, 05:47 PM

Hi,
I would concur with others here in that the sword needs attended to re the muck and rust if nothing else to conserve what is there wootz or not. I have attached some photos of a Tulwar of mine which has a similar hilt profile, sans the odd looking pommel, and interestingly a similar point profile with the odd slightly clipped look. Could be a nice sword with some work but I remember what it was like when my kids were very young

My Regards,
Norman.

6th August 2012, 05:49 PM	#1
LostDutchman Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 11	Another Tulwar I had this piece walk into the coin shop this week. I know what I have learned from the internet about these. Any opinions or information would be appreciated. Matt Attached Images

11th August 2012, 03:15 PM	#12
LostDutchman Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 11	Ibrahiim I did look through the threads you posted with the last tulwar. Those were very impressive collections... as that was my first tulwar and this my second a lot of it went over my head but I did find it very interesting. Jim I haven't had a chance to even think about trying anything yet. The wife and I have a newborn and a 2 year old so when I'm not at work I don't get much free time. Hopefully this weekend. Last edited by LostDutchman; 12th August 2012 at 04:07 AM.

11th August 2012, 03:36 PM	#13
LostDutchman Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 11	This is what I'm seeing in hand. It's hard to capture with the camera and it's a little more noticeable in hand. Attached Images

12th August 2012, 05:47 PM	#16
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi, I would concur with others here in that the sword needs attended to re the muck and rust if nothing else to conserve what is there wootz or not. I have attached some photos of a Tulwar of mine which has a similar hilt profile, sans the odd looking pommel, and interestingly a similar point profile with the odd slightly clipped look. Could be a nice sword with some work but I remember what it was like when my kids were very young My Regards, Norman. Attached Images

7th August 2012, 09:02 PM	#2
LostDutchman Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 11	I should have added that it's 94cm in total length.

8th August 2012, 03:36 AM	#3
Dom Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG) Posts: 1,142	Hi Matt Tulwar very dark (?), at least the blade has need ... of a good shot of elbow grease the ferule in brass or copper, is very elegant top of the handle, seems unusual but we cannot distinguish its configuration it's not really my field ... also I'll expect to know what my colleagues will say à + Dom

8th August 2012, 06:35 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	What did you learn from the internet on these? Have you an opinion from that on the classification or period? These tulwar variations have been discussed here many times of course so Im curious what the internet at large has pertaining to these.

9th August 2012, 01:40 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Thank you for the input Matt. Actually Im glad you brought up the last tulwar you posted, which I responded to in some depth, and I wondered if the information was useful. As you can see there is notable difference the hilt of this example, the typical curvature of most of these tulwar blades is similar. What is key in this case is the hilt, and particularly those flueret quillons. These are typically associated with Deccani weapons, however there were profound connections between those Sultanates and Mughal regions to the north, northwest. In this case the style hilt and the central floral device in the chowk suggests areas toward Afghanistan borders but probably from areas in Sind and Baluchistan. This may be of the type used by the Talpurs in Sind, and I think 19th century early to mid. There seems to be black from japanning on the hilt which seems unusual, but the dark patina under and on the blade seem to reflect genuine age. It is of course quite subjective in trying to assess regions and period in tulwars, and estimations are based mostly on similar examples with some provenance when available. The tulwar itself was widely diffused and in a historically volatile and diverse climate through many centuries. Jim

9th August 2012, 04:38 AM	#7
LostDutchman Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 11	As a coin dealer by trade I was taught not to "mess" with antiques. Is this the same in the sword collecting community? I think I see a wootz blade in hand... But the old surface rust makes it hard to be sure.

9th August 2012, 04:07 PM	#8
AJ1356 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Nashville Posts: 314	To me the pommel looks like a newer addition. From the pictures the metal work is different from the rest and also the patina is of different shapes.

9th August 2012, 07:37 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Entirely agree with Ibrahiim, light cleaning is perfectly acceptable, especially to stabilize the condition and check any active corrosion. This must be done prudently and every effort made to avoid compromising the patination. I think sometimes so much effort to look for wootz in some of these blades ends up with excessive cleaning on blades which are better left patinated (in my opinion). The blade on this example seems of form often seen with many Rajasthan produced blades which do not typically reveal wootz, but more standard forged material. There does seem to be some irregular areas in the overall patination which reveal some more recent rust and light corrosion. The shape of the pommel on this seems to be a somewhat altered type similar to those on Afghan paluoars, and looks like some kind of sheeting added over the construction. These things all concur with AJs observations noting incongruities in the components, and I would think this could well be in place with arms which were refurbished for various levies and units during the Raj and the Anglo-Afghan wars especially the 1919 campaign. Best regards, Jim

11th August 2012, 04:36 AM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Of any use?

12th August 2012, 03:56 AM	#14
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	OK Matt, quite understandable with little ones....appreciate the acknowledgement and update, hope the info is useful. Asking direct questions here I think will surpass long internet searches...use our search function as well, naturally as opportunity is available. Congrats on the kids, sounds like a wonderful family. Jim