Is it a keris handle and when yes from where?

Sajen · 20th June 2023, 09:04 PM

This (sea?)ivory handle is from the collection of a well known collector in Germany. It's IMHO a very nice and unusual handle but is it indeed a keris handle? A comparable handle is shown in Bob Hales book, page 138, pic. 328.
He writes that this is a keris handle from Sumbawa, Bima and that only two handles of this type are known!

Anyway, would you agree with the origin? Approx.: 7 cm high.

Sajen · 20th June 2023, 09:14 PM

Here the hilt from Hales!

Gustav · 20th June 2023, 10:58 PM

Detlef,

I think I know the other hilt Hales mentions. Interestingly, the Pendokok on his example annd the Selut on yours isn't much like something from Sumbawa.

Sajen · 20th June 2023, 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

Interestingly, the Pendokok on his example annd the Selut on yours isn't much like something from Sumbawa.

Thank you Gustav,

I have the same thoughts regarding the pendokok and selut. But both don't look original to the hilts IMHO. Can you share where the other example belongs to?

Regards,
Detlef

Sajen · 20th June 2023, 11:58 PM

BTW, the hilt in question looks like hippo ivory to my eyes.

A. G. Maisey · 21st June 2023, 01:04 AM

I do not really understand what is meant by "--- of this type---".

Over the years I have seen & owned keris hilts of this type, but not of the same execution nor material, as the ones shown here.

I am not able to offer a supportable opinion on geographic location of origin.

Is it a keris hilt?

I think probably yes, reason being that I have seen others like it, but as I have said, not the same execution.

It is probably not possible to give a solid opinion on whether or not this hilt was intended as a keris hilt unless one could actually have it in hand and form an opinion on whether or not it works as a keris hilt. It might be a hilt intended for, or adapted for use as, something else.

Are there any patterns of wear visible?

Gustav · 21st June 2023, 12:00 PM

Detlef,

I am sorry, I can not reach my references for some time now.

Gavin Nugent · 22nd June 2023, 05:29 AM

Puzzling pieces indeed. Is it a precursor to the Hulu Burung Serindi as it is known today?

I have seen the type noted as simply as Hulu Burung too and that the Hulu Burung Serindi is a more modern reference to the type.... typically noted as being from East coast Peninsular but also reputed to be seen the Perlis region.

I see some of the art pointing to peninsular but predates known interpretations of the form...

A. G. Maisey · 22nd June 2023, 08:34 AM

A burung serindit is a parakeet, a love bird, but a serindai is an evil spirit.

Serindi I know not.

However, birds in general and cockatoos in particular are regarded as messengers between the living and the dead, a link to the unseen world, and thus to the ancestors.

Hilt figures can sometimes be regarded as ancestral figures, and the burial position in some SE Asian cultures is echoed in the position of some hilt figures.

I think I might be able to see a cockatoo in this hilt form, and if so then I believe I am seeing a reference to an ancestor.

David · 22nd June 2023, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I do not really understand what is meant by "--- of this type---".

I believe that "of this type" might refer to the fact that the two examples shown here are figures that include human arms and legs. These hilts show this figure in a position which could be interpreted as an "ancestor position". Hulu Burung Serindit generally don't seem to include these human attributes, as seen in the attached photo.

Gustav · 22nd June 2023, 10:54 PM

This is a state Keris from Sumbawa, in Museum Pusat. I am not completely sure, but I think a Keris with a hilt quite close to this one belonged to the Nusantara Museum in Delft.

A. G. Maisey · 22nd June 2023, 11:57 PM

In my Post #6 I commented that I did not understand what Hales had meant by "---of this type---".

For me, the "type" of all these hilts is the Kakatua or cockatoo type, & I've seen a lot of kakatua hilts, not necessarily only on keris, I've seen them on various other sundry knives and even as a handle for a dheplokan.

The hilt style that is being called "serindit" is for me a kakatua type, maybe a sub-type.

The connection of cockatoos with the ancestors, the dead, the Hidden World is pretty widespread in SE Asia, so it is easy to understand how it became a hilt motif.

These hilts with the kakatua motif that began this discussion have synthesized into a humanoid figure. Possibly "morph" might be a better word than "synthesize", as "morph" indicates a gradual change, "synthesize" is simply to combine. But to use "morph" we would need a lot of examples of the kakatua type of hilt that demonstrates the gradual change from bird motif to humanoid motif.

In any case, whether the kakatua type of hilt gained humanoid characteristics gradually (which I personally believe is the case), or by a process of synthesis, we do have examples of kakatua type hilts with humanoid characteristics, something that is easy to understand and something that I have seen, whether very clearly defined, or merely suggested, in more examples than the two old ones earlier in this thread. Even if we look at modern examples of the kakatua type where the bird motif is very dominant, nobody needs a real lot of imagination to see the movement of wings & feet towards arms & legs.

I think it becomes a matter of interpretation, based upon examples of the kakatua motif already encountered, and not limited to just keris. Perhaps Hales did mean "kakatua style expressed as ancestor figure", and that idea, taken in isolation, might seem to indicate extreme rarity, but taken against a wider background, not really so rare.

Based upon what I know of the way in which Javanese & Balinese craftsmen work, the finished piece of art does not necessarily represent the idea in the artist's mind when he started to produce the art work, the finished item can be dictated by the material, or by other factors, as one carver said to me:- "--- I'm not thinking about what I'm carving, I just let my hands work ---". This sort of expresses the idea that the thing being carved is already present in the material, all that is required is for the artist to remove the excess material that covers it.

jagabuwana · 23rd June 2023, 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

A burung serindit is a parakeet, a love bird, but a serindai is an evil spirit.

Serindi I know not.

I believe that a Malay pronunciation of 'serindit' would be with a barely audible t at the end, a subtle glottal stop. I think 'serindi' might just be a closer-to-phonetic rendition of that.

A. G. Maisey · 23rd June 2023, 06:05 AM

Yes, you are of course correct Jaga, but we're using text, not voice so it sort of helps a bit for non-speakers of these languages if they have more or less generally accepted spellings they can work with when they do their further research to help answer all the questions that our little exchanges surely generate for them.

jagabuwana · 23rd June 2023, 08:48 AM

Totally agree Alan, it would be better to use the correct or generally accepted spelling when we can, so as to not cause any confusion.

Sajen · 25th June 2023, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I believe that "of this type" might refer to the fact that the two examples shown here are figures that include human arms and legs. These hilts show this figure in a position which could be interpreted as an "ancestor position". Hulu Burung Serindit generally don't seem to include these human attributes, as seen in the attached photo.

Agree with you David!

Sajen · 25th June 2023, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

This is a state Keris from Sumbawa, in Museum Pusat. I am not completely sure, but I think a Keris with a hilt quite close to this one belonged to the Nusantara Museum in Delft.

Thank you very much for the picture Gustav. Same handle style indeed. So the attribution to Sumbawa seems to be correct.

Regards,
Detlef

20th June 2023, 09:04 PM	#1
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,779	Is it a keris handle and when yes from where? This (sea?)ivory handle is from the collection of a well known collector in Germany. It's IMHO a very nice and unusual handle but is it indeed a keris handle? A comparable handle is shown in Bob Hales book, page 138, pic. 328. He writes that this is a keris handle from Sumbawa, Bima and that only two handles of this type are known! Anyway, would you agree with the origin? Approx.: 7 cm high. Attached Images

20th June 2023, 09:14 PM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,779	Here the hilt from Hales! Attached Images

22nd June 2023, 10:54 PM	#11
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,247	This is a state Keris from Sumbawa, in Museum Pusat. I am not completely sure, but I think a Keris with a hilt quite close to this one belonged to the Nusantara Museum in Delft. Attached Images

20th June 2023, 10:58 PM	#3
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,247	Detlef, I think I know the other hilt Hales mentions. Interestingly, the Pendokok on his example annd the Selut on yours isn't much like something from Sumbawa.

20th June 2023, 11:58 PM	#5
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,779	BTW, the hilt in question looks like hippo ivory to my eyes.

21st June 2023, 01:04 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	I do not really understand what is meant by "--- of this type---". Over the years I have seen & owned keris hilts of this type, but not of the same execution nor material, as the ones shown here. I am not able to offer a supportable opinion on geographic location of origin. Is it a keris hilt? I think probably yes, reason being that I have seen others like it, but as I have said, not the same execution. It is probably not possible to give a solid opinion on whether or not this hilt was intended as a keris hilt unless one could actually have it in hand and form an opinion on whether or not it works as a keris hilt. It might be a hilt intended for, or adapted for use as, something else. Are there any patterns of wear visible?

21st June 2023, 12:00 PM	#7
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,247	Detlef, I am sorry, I can not reach my references for some time now.

22nd June 2023, 05:29 AM	#8
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Puzzling pieces indeed. Is it a precursor to the Hulu Burung Serindi as it is known today? I have seen the type noted as simply as Hulu Burung too and that the Hulu Burung Serindi is a more modern reference to the type.... typically noted as being from East coast Peninsular but also reputed to be seen the Perlis region. I see some of the art pointing to peninsular but predates known interpretations of the form...

22nd June 2023, 08:34 AM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	A burung serindit is a parakeet, a love bird, but a serindai is an evil spirit. Serindi I know not. However, birds in general and cockatoos in particular are regarded as messengers between the living and the dead, a link to the unseen world, and thus to the ancestors. Hilt figures can sometimes be regarded as ancestral figures, and the burial position in some SE Asian cultures is echoed in the position of some hilt figures. I think I might be able to see a cockatoo in this hilt form, and if so then I believe I am seeing a reference to an ancestor.

22nd June 2023, 11:57 PM	#12
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	In my Post #6 I commented that I did not understand what Hales had meant by "---of this type---". For me, the "type" of all these hilts is the Kakatua or cockatoo type, & I've seen a lot of kakatua hilts, not necessarily only on keris, I've seen them on various other sundry knives and even as a handle for a dheplokan. The hilt style that is being called "serindit" is for me a kakatua type, maybe a sub-type. The connection of cockatoos with the ancestors, the dead, the Hidden World is pretty widespread in SE Asia, so it is easy to understand how it became a hilt motif. These hilts with the kakatua motif that began this discussion have synthesized into a humanoid figure. Possibly "morph" might be a better word than "synthesize", as "morph" indicates a gradual change, "synthesize" is simply to combine. But to use "morph" we would need a lot of examples of the kakatua type of hilt that demonstrates the gradual change from bird motif to humanoid motif. In any case, whether the kakatua type of hilt gained humanoid characteristics gradually (which I personally believe is the case), or by a process of synthesis, we do have examples of kakatua type hilts with humanoid characteristics, something that is easy to understand and something that I have seen, whether very clearly defined, or merely suggested, in more examples than the two old ones earlier in this thread. Even if we look at modern examples of the kakatua type where the bird motif is very dominant, nobody needs a real lot of imagination to see the movement of wings & feet towards arms & legs. I think it becomes a matter of interpretation, based upon examples of the kakatua motif already encountered, and not limited to just keris. Perhaps Hales did mean "kakatua style expressed as ancestor figure", and that idea, taken in isolation, might seem to indicate extreme rarity, but taken against a wider background, not really so rare. Based upon what I know of the way in which Javanese & Balinese craftsmen work, the finished piece of art does not necessarily represent the idea in the artist's mind when he started to produce the art work, the finished item can be dictated by the material, or by other factors, as one carver said to me:- "--- I'm not thinking about what I'm carving, I just let my hands work ---". This sort of expresses the idea that the thing being carved is already present in the material, all that is required is for the artist to remove the excess material that covers it.

23rd June 2023, 06:05 AM	#14
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Yes, you are of course correct Jaga, but we're using text, not voice so it sort of helps a bit for non-speakers of these languages if they have more or less generally accepted spellings they can work with when they do their further research to help answer all the questions that our little exchanges surely generate for them.

23rd June 2023, 08:48 AM	#15
jagabuwana Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 281	Totally agree Alan, it would be better to use the correct or generally accepted spelling when we can, so as to not cause any confusion.