Show off your Chinese fighting knives :)

[KuKulzA28]

Now here's a topic that doesn't seem to surface very often! Knives seem to play less of a role in traditional Chinese martial arts. The stage is given to spears, staves, sabers, and swords. But, my impression is that thick fighting knives were pretty common, at least in the south, and on Taiwan. I have seen pictures of "River Pirate knives" and Pai dao or "shield knives" and Hu-dieh-dao or "butterfly knives" or the more specific baat jam do or "eight slash knives". There's no real set form, except that the blade is always pretty similar - something like a long sharpened wedge. They range from large (but concealable) knives to shortswords. They are single or paired. They have guards or don't. Sometimes they have diamond checkering on grips, sometimes some floral design, sometimes a spiraling carve, and sometimes just plain wood. And they typically have thick spines, hefty handles, and a stabbing point.

Well, I got one awhile back. No sheath. It's hefty for a knife, but because of the heavy pommel, the balance is right at the guard, making it very manageable and nimble. Spine very thick, blade is sharp, and the tip made for stabbing. Seems like you could jam this through thick clothing, rattan armor, leather - whatever was worn back then in the south for protection. The simple design also lends itself to versatility. It can be held different ways, all of which feel good for stabbing.


Some thoughts...

• Do these normally come in wooden sheaths? Leather? Pig-skin?
• Who used these? I'm assuming not the regular standing armies - probably civilians looking for a self-defense weapon, bandits, pirates, local martial artists and bodyguards... ?
• Did this type of knife make it out of Guangdong and Fujian to the Philippines, Malaysia, and Indonesia with the merchants and pirates? How did it fare against native designs?
• Is there a specific name or term for this style? I have a feeling there isn't.

(on a side note, you can see a similarity between this style of knife and some of the Taiwanese aboriginal knife styles)

I figure it could be good to consolidate them into a thread for the purposes of sharing, showing off, and discussion..

So you have one of these Chinese fighting knives? Let's see 'em!

[Neil]

Great idea for a thread. I think more discussions on Chinese arms are in order.

Here is one that I sold about a year ago. I had several pictures of it in the past, but can only find this one now.

It was part of a pair at one time. Note the thin copper guard and stacked leather grip. Not as nicely made as your example. Although the impressive variety is one of the things that makes Chinese arms so interesting.

[Nathaniel]

Originally Posted by Neil

Great idea for a thread. I think more discussions on Chinese arms are in order.

I definitely agree! Great Thread! Often these knives do not get as much attention as the other Chinese weapons, however a knife is usually reasonably available and easier to conceal.

[KuKulzA28]

Glad you guys agree that this is a good topic, hope we get more participants!

[Maskell]

Gentleman,

These 3 knives came from China within the past 6 years in a container of Chinese antiques. Don't know much about them except they look pretty old. The largest is 18 1/4" overall. Any comments welcome.

Best Regards,
Jerry

[DaveA]

Here is my contribution. A double knife "River Pirate" knife. The absence of a hand guard distinguishes the "river pirate" type from other hudiedao. The knives can be quickly reversed in the hand and used with the unsharpened back edge to subdue an opponent without lethal cuts. Both of these knives have very thick and stiff pattern-welded blades of a very distinctive form and quite a substantial strength, retaining sharp edges and showing considerable aged patina. These blades have thick wedge shaped blades with a broad waist and diamond shape near the hilt. The grips are old wood or possibly horn, and all brass mounts show heavy patina and wonderful multi-sided graining to the guards and pommels. The faceted heavy brass pommel provides the knives with excellent balance in the hand. The leather scabbard is whole but in relatively poor condition compared to the knives. The overall length of each knife is 14 ¼ inches and each blade is 10 ¼ inches. Both knives house in the scabbard measuring 14 ¾ inches.

[Lew]

Here is a narrow bladed knife/dagger from Yunnan with a 7 inch blade.

[Timo Nieminen]

The weather was not good for photography today, nor was my camera, but here is a pair of knives. About 4mm thick at the spine at the widest part of the blade. Wedge-section, tapered.

Also, a much bigger knife.

I have no details about their origins, other than they're Chinese.

[Lew]

Here are three nice examples that are no longer in my collection . The two top ones are Chinese the smaller one is Vietnamese.

[Neil]

I think the stacked look on the guard of the most recent photos is interesting and something I have not seen on others. Although there are two sitting right next to each other. Unlike the octagonal pommel which is a commonly seen feature on Chinese weapons in general, is that guard presentation often seen by others.

Lew, do you have any back story or provenance on these two in particular.

I have also read somewhere that these forms of daggers were also made in San Fransisco in the mid to late 19th century. Are others familiar with this information. If so, can you elaborate on it.

[Timo Nieminen]

Originally Posted by Neil

I have also read somewhere that these forms of daggers were also made in San Fransisco in the mid to late 19th century. Are others familiar with this information. If so, can you elaborate on it.

They were certainly used in San Francisco; they're a classic part of the weaponry of Chinese gangs of the area. Other weapons of note include butterfly swords, Japanese tanto, truncheons/clubs including cha/sai, cleavers, axes, and the occasional revolver.

The magic google search terms, which will find some contemporary illustrations (from scare journalism?), are "Highbinder weapons".

How much was made locally, I don't know.

[Neil]

Thanks for your comment. Although I should have been more specific. I believe I read they were made by American cutlers in San Fransisco for the Chinese-American market as well, although I can not remember their names. I will try to find the information.

Edited:
Oh, I found the old post and did not remember it properly. Appears to be less specific than I thought.

[Lew]

You should google old knife makers of San Francisco Will &Finck made versions of this type of Chinese Bowie knife. This photo is from my old copy of the book.

[KuKulzA28]

Absolutely fascinated by the info you guys are presenting.

[David R]

This has me wondering about a relic "bowie" style knife I have. Lathe turned bone grip, German silver mounts, and a blade with faint Chinese characters visible on it. The blade has the back chamfered for about half it's length as well as the typical bowie clip back. I will try and get photo's posted....my phone camera is bust, so I will have to get a friend to take some. It looks like one of those shown above. I assumed Chinese made for the western market, now I wonder if it is US made for local Chinese.

[Neil]

Originally Posted by Lew

You should google old knife makers of San Francisco Will &Finck made versions of this type of Chinese Bowie knife. This photo is from my old copy of the book.

That's really interesting. Thank you Lew for sharing. The fact that they were being made by American Cutlers/knife makers makes me think of two the questions. Were these knives in that high of demand, or just novelties. Also, is it possible that they were more utilitarian oriented than fighting. Meaning the need to cut in more mundane situations no doubt happened more often than combat. Maybe they are on the large side for practical utility, and doubles. I am curious what others think.

I thought I would also put up an example with a scabbard that speaks to one of the original question of what the scabbards were made of. By no means is this definitive, but rather one example.

[KuKulzA28]

Nice picture! I have heard many are made of pig skin, but I would guess any sort of leather would do. Interestingly, there's "Ping Pu" (Taiwan's indigenous peopl eof the plains, now largely assimilated) knives that look quite similar to these Chinese fighting knives, and their sheaths are usually cord-wrapped and wooden.

Well, I think part of the reason for their large size is, well, you could get away with it (socially more acceptable?) better back then. Nowadays in many places having a knife well-suited for killing is already asking for trouble - unless it's covert and hidden from view. But to be honest I think in back in the day, in times of peace and in more affluent areas, unless an acceptable or expected part of man's daily attire, weaponry held in the open was usually not acceptable in most cultures... Then again, soldiers, bandits, thugs, and folks from the countryside lived outside the norms of normal urbanites, right?

Plus, for fighting, a big knife has a lot of advantages. You can stab deeper and have a longer cutting edge to cut and slice. As these are very good stabbers, this would make sense. Aside from concealment and surprise, small knives for fighting don't have those combat advantages. They're also pretty sharp - at least mine is, and the edge is good. For utility, a longer cutting edge is always good. Another thought... the handle is very plain in geometry, comfortable and versatile. This knife can easily be in any normal grip: held edge up or down, blade up or down. A very simple design, but pretty effective.



The participation of American cutlers is very cool, I did not know that. But this makes sense... Europe and America had many skilled smiths/manufacturers and they made blades for local markets everywhere... from Indian and African swords to African, Oceanic, and Latin American machetes... and tomahawks, spears, and arrowheads before that for Native Americans.

[David R]

Sticking my two pennyworth in, I think the heavy pommel is a dead giveaway that it is a fighting knife. It is a style seen on Chinese Jian maces, re the example below. I have pics of others in like style, and I am told it can even appear on swords.

[KuKulzA28]

I've never seen it on swords, but I do agree that it's a fighting oriented weapon and pommels like that aren't typically on utility knives... ever.

I wonder, where did that pommel style originate?
I do see it on maces, Chinese sai, iron rods, and of course these knives.

I've been thinking about utility for this knife, and sure it's got a sharp edge, it can be used for utility. But I think looking for a utility is futile. It was probably a man's everyday carry and meant for defense and murder, but could easily be used for mundane tasks if need be. But the purpose and design of the knife seems be like (like I keep saying) for stabbing. It's got as much utility as a dagger, minus the second edge.

[harimauhk]

Fascinating! I was born in Hong Kong and until Kuk showed me his knife, I'd never seen one of these. I'm going to see if I can find an antique one locally.

[Timo Nieminen]

Originally Posted by KuKulzA28

I wonder, where did that pommel style originate?
I do see it on maces, Chinese sai, iron rods, and of course these knives.

I've seen it on photos of that are claimed to be Ming dynasty truncheons, jian-maces, and chicken-foot-tipped truncheons. I don't know how reliably these are dated as Ming - the books these appear in have Chinese text which I can't significantly read

Definitely used in the Qing dynasty, for similar weapons, and knives like here, and also sometimes on swords. It appears in Qing art, as well as many surviving examples. Alex Huangfu's "Iron and Steel Swords of China" has one Qing example (with guard in the same style), and the attached example is supposedly Qing.

I haven't seen any non-Chinese examples until the American-made Chinese knives in this thread.

[KuKulzA28]

Oooh, good info Timo

Originally Posted by harimauhk

Fascinating! I was born in Hong Kong and until Kuk showed me his knife, I'd never seen one of these. I'm going to see if I can find an antique one locally.

Hehe, good luck! There's a smith in Taiwan who's made a very similar type of knife, but I forget his name...

[VANDOO]

HERE ARE A FEW EXAMPLES OF CHINESE KNIVES FIGHTING AND FANCY DRESS KNIVES. THE ONE WITH A LAPIS HANDLE LOOKS A BIT TOO NICE FOR A TOURIST PIECE 12.5 INCHES LONG. THE ONE WITH BRONZE DRAGON FITTINGS IS ONLY 9IN LONG AND MAY BE A REPLICA OF A 18TH CENTURY KNIFE? ALL I HAVE IS THE PICTURES SO CAN ONLY GUESS.

[VANDOO]

ONE MORE PICTURE OF THE CHINESE DOUBBLE FIGHTING KNIVES
PICTURES OF A CHINESE KNIFE OR LETTER OPENER USING A WHITE JADE BELT HOOK AND A BAT DESIGN, GOOD WORKMANSHIP BUT MAY BE A LETTER OPENER??
PICTURES OF A SOUTHWEST CHINA MINORITY TRIBE KNIFE 19TH. CENTURY.