Monstrous Indian Sword

[ariel]

Just ended.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=6634554654
It looks very impressive, isn't it?
I just wonder whether it could be wielded effectively in the battle of used by palace guards to scare away the passerbys
The blade has striations(?). Is it Damascus? Anybody knows the meaning of the flower mark on the blade?
I always wanted one of those but one has to set priorities.

[erlikhan]

I dont think it could have a use else than as a saw to cut and shape plants in the palace garden . Does to cut a normal blade simply in two from tip to middle without any structural addition make it a Zulfikar type sword?.Plus,all of those Indian samples I have seen insist to have a large hole at the end of the gap,which causes the blade get even weaker!

[Valjhun]

Well, I must dissagree with both of you.

That is definetly a 17th century piece (according to Tirri) and I like it verry much, almost totaly of my taste. The darkest piece I've ever seen. Nice clean job. Nice welded steel construction (maybe even wootz the owner will have to ethch it) When I saw it I asked myself if Tirri is selling his collection out, but at a closer look thatone is a little different, from the one in his book, but still enoughly similar that would form a pair.

Use as a weapon? Well , it has to be used by one of those schwartzie looking, two meter tall guys dressed with red tourbans and white pants It's efficiency as a weapon is questionable. Verry intimidating, yes, but... Well i would guess that it is quite balanced compared to a tegha, the weight of the blade is greatly reduced by the split. The split on most Dhul Fagars I've seen is really very weak points, but definetly no thatone. Beeig made from welded steel it makes it verry flexible and still the blade is quite thick. That hole Erlikhan, has a function, I suppose, Just immagine a tulwar blade beeing trapped there. Further the serrated blade in combination with its weight would be great in tearing apart chainmail. Not a decoration piece at all, just a different view of combat style. Comparing it to a tulwar or a firanghi, it would be the same if you compare the style of combat between a rapier and a german two handed panzersticher.

Well all, I have said about its battle use is pure speculation, as I haven't handlle it. Yes SenSei, it could be terrible to handle.

just my 0,02$, but

I LIKE IT!

I'm really looking forward comments from B.I., Jens, Jim, Lew and other masters of Indian Weapons.

P.S.: "I always wanted one of those but one has to set priorities." SenSei, If you have in mind what I know you have, ending on 12 june with a curved blade... It will be a hard master to pupil battle

[erlikhan]

I mean this "hole", not the long gap between the edges. It has no use but only causes the blade get even much weaker against collisions with other blades. (It is already weak enough even without considering that hole, because it is split into two)

[Valjhun]

Yes Erlikhan, I also mean that hole... Immagine a firangi blade getting there and the fast spring aciton of the wielder of the zulfikar...

[B.I]

hi valhjun,
i am happy to participate on any discussion on indian swords. however, i would prefer it if all cards were on the table.
you said -

maybe even wootz the owner will have to ethch it

and

as I haven't handlle it

are you the owner? I dont mind if you are, but speaking as a third party in disguise just hints at ulterior motives.

or, maybe i have just read too many sherlock holmes novels!

[ErnestoJuan]

Well guys,

I know absolutely nothing about Indian edged weapons. To me this looks like a giant can opener

Sardines Vindaloo anybody ?

[Valjhun]

No, I'm not the owner. However I know the guy who made the last bid on that. He is not a member of this forum.

I havent got your point....

"maybe even wootz the owner will have to ethch it" - I said that 'cos it the material looks like welded steel, but maybe a wootz pattern will show up if the buyer decides to etch it.

"as I haven't handled it" - Well, I haven't had that particular sword in my hand. I sad that, 'cos I'd liked to accenuate that my opinions about the fighting qualities of that sword are mere speculation based on logic.

I really don't know what have you meant with your Sherlock Holmes post.

[B.I]

hi valjhun,
i didnt mean anything bad by it, but was just a little confused.
by looking at the winners history, he was the same guy that won this sword

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2511

in that thread, you mentioned that you had bought the sword.

so, sherlock holmes put the two together and figured that you were the winning bidder.

i wouldnt be surprised if i was wrong, as i always thought that watson was the brains anyway.

no offence meant.

[Valjhun]

In fact he bought it for me toghether with some other items, 'cos I had probblems the last month with my credit card issuer, according to paypal. wich is not the case with that dhul fagar, I'm affraid (and frustrated )

[B.I]

did your friend decide to keep it himself
nothing worse than a collector/dealer as he will only sell things that he doesnt like himself! personally, i prefer someone that will sell his right arm for a profit as at least you get a chance for the good stuff.
appologies for the accusations

[Valjhun]

Yes, you're right Brian, but the worst thing is maybe that at the end it's me the seller who sometime sells his "mistakes", well for a profit at least.


Now, about that sword, what do you think about its practical implementation?

[Rick]

If I might offer an observation in a somewhat humorous light ; when you get down to the split the blade looks 'too light to fight , and too thin to win'.

I would think that if one were lucky enough to get a blade trapped in the split area and tried to twist it out their opponent's hand they might well end up with two very unaligned points ; the area (IMO) lacks 'beef'.

I just wonder if this is an old hilt married to a newer blade and meant to be brought back from Indja with a Britisher during the late 19th .

As a matter of fact I'm doubting any of this piece is "17th C."

[B.I]

hi,
again, purely speculative and only an opinion. i have handled a few of these and they are of a type. most of them had similar basket hilts, so i dont feel its a marriage (unless evidence hints that way). also, if you ignore the blade, and judge the hilt, it seems late 18thC and not any earlier. tirri was not privy to any information past personal opinion, and his opinion is as valid as mine, but i just dont agree with it (the nature of speculation).
if it werent for the hilt i would think it a 19thC ceremonial piece. the hilt form hints at an earlier age. i dont find it plausable that a collection of these all had their hilts changed in a similar way, so i am going with the assumption that if i feel the hilt is 18thC, then the blade is probably of a same age.
even with this age, i still feel it was of a ceremonial origin. duplicating an opinion of what a 'holy' sword looked like hints at this, as i dont feel that battle asthetics would be sacrificed for a holy look.
i cant judge martial aspects, as i have never held an interest or opinion on this, and others are more suited to do so. i dont hold to opinions on the split or hole being created as a sword catcher as this thought process doesnt exist on any other swords of this culture, so why this one?
the hilt is southern but i cant think of which region would produce such a weapon. the presence of the split indicates an islamic nature. it is not deccani at all, so which culture embraced islam in the south. a mystery. maybe it is maharathan and the split being a zulfigar is misleading. or, maybe they are from a part of the south that embraced islam, but were not powerful enough to leave an imprint on history. we too easily assume an origin of known cultures, and ignore the smaller, less distinct ones.
i put this type of weapon in the same catgegory as huge teghas (with a t-section back-edge) ie made for a use other than fighting.
they dont exist in large numbers so it was not a 'fashionable' weapon.
sorry i cant offer more.

[Jim McDougall]

This sword is an extremely handsome example that seems, as Brian notes, one of a number that have appeared over the years with this same type of bifurcated, serrated blade and mounted in khanda hilts. I agree with him in his assessment of probably late 18th century on the hilt, and that the blade seems contemporary with it. I have always been inclined to consider these of ceremonial or 'parade' form, and unlikely to have been intended for combat. With reference to the lengthy bifurcation in the blade and the huge hole at is root, I would consider the integrity of the blade for combat highly compromised. While the concept of a practical purpose for this unusual form of blade and the split with large circle at its base, especially as a blade catcher is not likely to have been its intention, the observation is not an unusual one. Over the years many weapons researchers have tried to discover the practical purposes of such deliberate and unusual features such as notches, hooks and openings in blades and none have been proven feasible for catching blades in combat. Primarily, the chances of even accidentally catching a blade in one of these strategically places blade features is almost nil, then consider trying to connect the opponents blade into the notch or whatever in the heat of combat. Even if sword to sword combat did occur, which was atypical in these regions, it would be incredibly difficult to accomplish.

As far as the appearance of this bifurcated blade, believed to represent the Sacred Sword Zulfikar, it is indeed interesting to see these mounted in the hilts known typically as Hindu basket hilts, or Khanda. It would seem quite possible that this would be incongruous, however it is known that the Rajputs, who of course were Hindu and strongly favored the khanda, were often in the service of the Mughals. Possibly this may have some plausible association to these seemingly ceremonial, parade or possibly palace guard swords. The serrations on the blade seem to have particular associations to other khanda hilted swords with 'nagan' features such as inflated blade profiles said to represent the hood of the cobra, as well as the undulating or wavy blades. Possibly these variations may have derived from these forms, with the addition of the features of the blade of Zulfikar.

The serrations on Indian swords are mentioned in Pant (p.56-57), where he notes khanda hilts, and serrated zig zag blades and notes further that these swords were used against armor, but found unsuitable for such use by the soldiers, and abandoning their use by late 17th c. AD. Although such use in combat appears to have ceased, such dramatically featured blades would serve well in impressive appearance in court or parade use, and probably did in these courts well into the 19th century.

I was gonna make this 2 cents worth but probably spent a nickel!!!
Anyway, It really is a beautiful piece and probably has some fascinating history, even if not a combat weapon.

Best regards,
Jim

[Tim Simmons]

Not an area I know much about but to me the construction flows very nicely and the overall shape is of one piece and meddle free. It is highly likely that the blade has always been kept cleaner than the handle it only takes seconds to wipe a blade. It is jolly impressive looking which I think its major purpose. Some forked weapons are for fighting but I suspect most are parade like pieces from the Sudan to Indonesia. I could rather fancy one.

[katana]

What a fantastically fearsome sword, looks impractical to me, but to have that un-sheathed in a threatening manner would certainly frighten the hell out of me
As to the 'blade catcher' well IMHO, irrespective of the strength of the blade, the skill and accuracy required to trap your opponants blade would be extraordinary. If a swordsman's skill was that good, he certainly would not need to trap your blade....a bit like fighting Goliath ......without the sling shot.

But that 'saw' edged blade 'slashed' across the chest, gives new meaning to open heart surgery

I REALLY LIKE IT

[Valjhun]

YES!

I've managed to buy it actually. I was a bit sceptic, but today I visited my friend and I persuaded him to sell me the sword. I fallen in love with the sword in the right moment I've took it in my hand. WHAT A MASTERPIECE! It's balance is terrific and (well I'm a little bit ashamed of telling you that ) it gives you a sense an incredible sense of power holding it!!!! I handled a lot of tulwars and even similar size teghas, but I can assure you that noone was so balanced and of such gorgeus feeling about it. You can make a deadly slash with it.

Constructed of very fine laminated steel (maybe wootz), that the photos doesn't make justice.

Not so bad, even with its notch. The points are very flexible an they wont bed or broke off I guess, even in the heat of the combat. Somewhere I've read that Hindus predileged holy forms on their weapons over a pratical use. Is that the case?

There is a photo of one quite similar in the Jaiwants' book on page 62, where it is defined as SAPOLA or PAHARI SWORD, HIMICAL OR UTTAR PRADESH, 16th century A.D. What does that mean?

Further what is the meaning of thoose flowers?

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Valjhun,

You wrote 'There is a photo of one quite similar in the Jaiwants' book on page 62'. Did you know that the author wrote more than one book? Please tell us which book you are refering to.

[katana]

Originally Posted by Valjhun

YES!
WHAT A MASTERPIECE! It's balance is terrific and (well I'm a little bit ashamed of telling you that ) it gives you a sense an incredible sense of power holding it!!!! I handled a lot of tulwars and even similar size teghas, but I can assure you that noone was so balanced and of such gorgeus feeling about it. You can make a deadly slash with it.

Constructed of very fine laminated steel (maybe wootz), that the photos doesn't make justice.

Not so bad, even with its notch. The points are very flexible an they wont bed or broke off I guess, even in the heat of the combat.

Valjhun, I said before that I really liked it......but after these comments .....
I LIKE IT EVEN MORE

[Valjhun]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Hi Valjhun,

You wrote 'There is a photo of one quite similar in the Jaiwants' book on page 62'. Did you know that the author wrote more than one book? Please tell us which book you are refering to.

Sorry Jens, I didn't know that Mr. Jaiwant wrote other books than Arms and Armour - Traditional weapons of India.

I'm really looking forward to read your comment about it. Thanks!

[Valjhun]

Seems that the hilt was covered with silver, once.

[spiral]

Fascinating piece!

Spiral

[Valjhun]

I've found a probable answer:

From R. Elgoods, Hindu arms and Ritual:
"While form and decoration on European arms generally follow effective function, in Hindu weaponry functional efficiency was achieved by designing arms according to ancient rules in order to attract the goddes to take up residence. Her presence made them effective on the battledield while prophylactic motifs similar to those found on temples protected the user if the weapon against malevolent spirits attracted by vilence. These ornate weapons ebabled the king and his warriors to fight for the preservation of the ideal Hindu state."




Is that the case? What do you think?

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by Valjhun

I've found a probable answer:

From R. Elgoods, Hindu arms and Ritual:
"While form and decoration on European arms generally follow effective function, in Hindu weaponry functional efficiency was achieved by designing arms according to ancient rules in order to attract the goddes to take up residence. Her presence made them effective on the battledield while prophylactic motifs similar to those found on temples protected the user if the weapon against malevolent spirits attracted by vilence. These ornate weapons ebabled the king and his warriors to fight for the preservation of the ideal Hindu state."

Is that the case? What do you think?

This is certainly true regarding the Newar, Nair or temple swords that were strictly used in rituals. I have several that were used by the Theyyam of Kerala / Malabar.

Pictured below is one of these temple swords, held by a Theyyam in trance. He has become the goddess.

I will post a thread on my sword I have soon as I can take some pictures.

Silver was an important metal. The 18th c sword I have is solid silver with brass or bronze sideplates. The newer swords, like the one pictured below are sadly no longer silver due to the expense.

[B.I]

some of these types of hilt were gilt.
although i have heard this denied, it is generally assumed that steel couldnt be mercury gilt, so it was silvered first, with a light layer of gilding over the silver, giving it a final and appealing gold colour. this was definately a hindu trait (and done profusley on south indian arms), although also widely used on indian islamic arms. as the gilding was very thin, this wore off quickly, leaving just the silvering which, although it lasted longer, was prone to wear off as yours shows.