Knife with interesting markings - Ebay

Ferguson · 6th April 2011, 12:24 AM

Ended this morning. I lost out, hopefully to one of my friends here.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...K%3AMEDWX%3AIT

What do you think? Interesting looking knife.
Steve

David · 6th April 2011, 01:43 AM

Well doesn't that triangle with the sun mark this one as Katipunan?

Dimasalang · 6th April 2011, 02:07 AM

Wow! Very nice. Wish you won this one. Excellent sunface on the blade and scabbard. Not to many you see of these.

Rick · 6th April 2011, 02:35 AM

Katipunan symbols .
Is it of the era though ??
Hmmmmm .

I'm more curious about the trumpets with a 3 .
The three stars in the sun triangle ?

Robert · 6th April 2011, 03:30 AM

The sun and triangle symbol was a common enough even being used on stamps, see picture below. Like Rick I'm interested in the trumpet emblem with the 3 in it. As of yet I have not been able to find any information on this particular emblem but I'm still looking. I have been told though that it is not Filipino in origin.

Robert

Rick · 6th April 2011, 03:45 AM

Not 3rd Infantry .
They were formed in 1917 .

Battara · 6th April 2011, 03:51 AM

I saw this and (besides the lack of bling) the badge threw me off. I wonder if this is a composite piece, as in the badge was added later by a GI or even later.

Ferguson · 6th April 2011, 07:18 AM

Good discussion! The badge could have been added by anyone, at any time. The 3rd U.S. Cavalry served in the Philippine American War, but I have no idea what their insignia was. Badge aside, could the bolo have come from the early 1900s?
Steve

David · 6th April 2011, 01:02 PM

The 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment was formed in 1846 and probably did serve in the Philippines, though the Wiki article on them has a hole in it for that period. You will notice though that their insignia does indeed include a trumpet and the number 3.
They were nicknamed "The Brave Rifles" and their motto is "Blood and Steel".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3d_Armored_Cavalry_Regiment_(United_States)

David · 6th April 2011, 01:13 PM

This is their current insignia, but i am certain that the design would have been different back then, though it still probably maintained the same elements like the bugle.

David · 6th April 2011, 01:15 PM

Also the symbol on the reverse side from the triangle and sun looks like a cavalry flag, does it not?

Battara · 6th April 2011, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Coleman

The sun and triangle symbol was a common enough even being used on stamps, see picture below.

Now on the subject of the triangle, this stamp shows the emblem of the 1st PI Republic. I think the blade is authentic, but the rest altered?

Rick · 6th April 2011, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Also the symbol on the reverse side from the triangle and sun looks like a cavalry flag, does it not?

Very much like a Guidon, David .

The trumpet insignia on the scabbard looks old fashioned; perhaps a holdover from the Civil War ?

David · 6th April 2011, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Now on the subject of the triangle, this stamp shows the emblem of the 1st PI Republic. I think the blade is authentic, but the rest altered?

Probably not fair to say that the rest is not "authentic". It looks to me (and of course with not real provenance who is to say for sure) that this is a PI blade that fell into the hands of a 3rd cavalry soldier who then made it his own with the additions. Maybe it was a battle score. Maybe it was a gift or trade. Maybe he just bought it as a remembrance of the time, but i still read that as a very "authentic" piece of history.

Ferguson · 6th April 2011, 04:21 PM

A little more research reveals that the "looped horn" or bugle is the symbol for a "Field Musician" (bugler). The 3 could mean 3rd U.S. Infantry, Artillery, or Cavalry. All served in the Philippine American war.

I haven't found a definitive example of the insignia yet.

Steve

Spunjer · 6th April 2011, 04:48 PM

There's a sun face/triangle on the scabbard as well, so yeah, i'm pretty sure everything is original with the piece. Also remember, the bugle/No. 3 combo could represent a spanish unit..

Battara · 6th April 2011, 06:50 PM

David, I don't disagree that this is a battlefield pick up. What I meant was that the badge was later added altering the piece. It is a Civil War form of badge that was used in later wars, like the PI/American War.

I apologize for any confusion.

Dimasalang · 6th April 2011, 11:40 PM

Agree with Ron. The Bugler badge could of been from a Spanish unit. Possibly captured from a Spanish unit during the 1st or 2nd phase of the 1896 Revolution. Also, many Spanish soldiers stayed in the Philippines after the revolution and switched sides to fight under Aguinaldos military against the Americans.
And if the bugler emblem can be traced back to be American, it could of been captured from an American unit as well. Obviously, many soldiers on all sides were capturing and saving military artifacts from one another.

I would like to think the emblem was captured from the enemy and used as the owners "anting anting". Well, at least that is the story I would tell people.

Rick · 6th April 2011, 11:53 PM

For me the engraved Guidon raises questions; sadly it lacks a number .

Are these not traditionally cavalry flags ?

David · 7th April 2011, 04:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Are these not traditionally cavalry flags ?

Yes, i believe they are...
http://www.google.com/search?q=caval...w=1431&bih=692

Robert · 7th April 2011, 05:47 AM

I have searched the net for hours now trying to find any information on the insignia that is attached to the scabbard of this very interesting bolo and all that I have found is that it does not match any that I can find, American or Spanish. Here are a few pictures that show a Spanish button and the insignias used by the U.S. during the Civil War and the Indian Wars as well as the one used during the Spanish American war. They all show a single horn or crossed rifles not the double horns shown on the scabbard above. If anyone has any information showing the insignia on the above scabbard and when it was used and who it was used by please post it as this is driving me nutz.

Robert

Dimasalang · 7th April 2011, 11:39 PM

I believe we found a match.

Insignia of Spanish Light Infantry unit during the same era as the 1896 Revolution and the Span-Am War.

Complements of William Combs website.
http://www.agmohio.com/LRuniformshome.htm

Spunjer · 8th April 2011, 12:33 AM

I forgot about bill combs....

Ferguson · 8th April 2011, 01:14 AM

Good job Dimasalang!
Steve

Rick · 8th April 2011, 01:32 AM

All right then ........... great find !
This begs the question .

Who captured what here ?

carlos · 8th April 2011, 09:15 PM

Interisting knife

, Fortunatelly I was the winner of the auction ( I,m sorry Steve ). When I saw the knife thought inmediatelly in the symbols of the blade, the hilt ( maybe from a bayonet or a saber ) and the sheath with the 3 ( I had sawn some shields similarsin a uniforms ).
When I received I put more pictures.
Thanks all for the comments
best regards
carlos

Ferguson · 9th April 2011, 12:15 AM

Congratulations Carlos! That's wonderful. Glad you got it.

Let us know how you like it, and what you think of it.

Steve

Rick · 9th April 2011, 01:59 AM

We hate speculation, but I still wonder,

Is this a Philippine piece with captured insignia; or is it a Spanish captured piece remarked with Guidon and unit emblem ?

Obviously the knife is Katipunan; but whose hands did it finally wind up in ?
I'm guessing Spanish along with David .

Is the sheath original to the piece?
There is an interesting lug at the pommel end; almost as if it was made for a sheath with a pommel strap .

Robert · 9th April 2011, 04:38 AM

Carlos, My congratulations for your acquiring this VERY interesting piece for your collection.!!! If I had more money to spend you would not have gotten off so cheap.

Just kidding, I am very happy for you on being able to obtain this unique item. Myself I do not think the hilt was from another weapon but was purposely made for this knife.
Rick, It is hard to say which way this went. As Dimasalang has suggested the insignia could have been captured from the Spanish and then used as a personnel "anting anting" or the other way around with the knife being captured by the Spanish and then personalized by who ever was in possession of it at that point in time. As for the lug at the end of the pommel that is a common trait for knives from Luzon and I do believe that this sheath is original to the knife.
Dimasalang, Thank you so much for identifying this insignia (it was driving me nutz) as being Spanish in origin. The closest I could find was the button that I posted above but not the badge itself.

Robert

carlos · 9th April 2011, 04:34 PM

Is possible that hilt was made with a pistol gun hilt? some similar like this...
http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/public/01-trubia-1.pdf
best regards
carlos

6th April 2011, 12:24 AM	#1
Ferguson Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kernersville, NC, USA Posts: 793	Knife with interesting markings - Ebay Ended this morning. I lost out, hopefully to one of my friends here. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...K%3AMEDWX%3AIT What do you think? Interesting looking knife. Steve Attached Images

6th April 2011, 03:30 AM	#5
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	The sun and triangle symbol was a common enough even being used on stamps, see picture below. Like Rick I'm interested in the trumpet emblem with the 3 in it. As of yet I have not been able to find any information on this particular emblem but I'm still looking. I have been told though that it is not Filipino in origin. Robert Attached Images

6th April 2011, 01:13 PM	#10
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,113	This is their current insignia, but i am certain that the design would have been different back then, though it still probably maintained the same elements like the bugle. Attached Images

7th April 2011, 05:47 AM	#21
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	I have searched the net for hours now trying to find any information on the insignia that is attached to the scabbard of this very interesting bolo and all that I have found is that it does not match any that I can find, American or Spanish. Here are a few pictures that show a Spanish button and the insignias used by the U.S. during the Civil War and the Indian Wars as well as the one used during the Spanish American war. They all show a single horn or crossed rifles not the double horns shown on the scabbard above. If anyone has any information showing the insignia on the above scabbard and when it was used and who it was used by please post it as this is driving me nutz. Robert Attached Images

9th April 2011, 01:59 AM	#28
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	I Know We hate speculation, but I still wonder, Is this a Philippine piece with captured insignia; or is it a Spanish captured piece remarked with Guidon and unit emblem ? Obviously the knife is Katipunan; but whose hands did it finally wind up in ? I'm guessing Spanish along with David . Is the sheath original to the piece? There is an interesting lug at the pommel end; almost as if it was made for a sheath with a pommel strap .

6th April 2011, 01:43 AM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,113	Well doesn't that triangle with the sun mark this one as Katipunan?

6th April 2011, 02:07 AM	#3
Dimasalang Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 264	Wow! Very nice. Wish you won this one. Excellent sunface on the blade and scabbard. Not to many you see of these.

6th April 2011, 02:35 AM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	Katipunan symbols . Is it of the era though ?? Hmmmmm . I'm more curious about the trumpets with a 3 . The three stars in the sun triangle ?

6th April 2011, 03:45 AM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	Not 3rd Infantry . They were formed in 1917 .

6th April 2011, 03:51 AM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,217	I saw this and (besides the lack of bling) the badge threw me off. I wonder if this is a composite piece, as in the badge was added later by a GI or even later.

6th April 2011, 07:18 AM	#8
Ferguson Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kernersville, NC, USA Posts: 793	Good discussion! The badge could have been added by anyone, at any time. The 3rd U.S. Cavalry served in the Philippine American War, but I have no idea what their insignia was. Badge aside, could the bolo have come from the early 1900s? Steve

6th April 2011, 01:02 PM	#9
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,113	The 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment was formed in 1846 and probably did serve in the Philippines, though the Wiki article on them has a hole in it for that period. You will notice though that their insignia does indeed include a trumpet and the number 3. They were nicknamed "The Brave Rifles" and their motto is "Blood and Steel". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3d_Armored_Cavalry_Regiment_(United_States)

6th April 2011, 01:15 PM	#11
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,113	Also the symbol on the reverse side from the triangle and sun looks like a cavalry flag, does it not?

6th April 2011, 04:21 PM	#15
Ferguson Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kernersville, NC, USA Posts: 793	A little more research reveals that the "looped horn" or bugle is the symbol for a "Field Musician" (bugler). The 3 could mean 3rd U.S. Infantry, Artillery, or Cavalry. All served in the Philippine American war. I haven't found a definitive example of the insignia yet. Steve

6th April 2011, 04:48 PM	#16
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	There's a sun face/triangle on the scabbard as well, so yeah, i'm pretty sure everything is original with the piece. Also remember, the bugle/No. 3 combo could represent a spanish unit..

6th April 2011, 06:50 PM	#17
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,217	David, I don't disagree that this is a battlefield pick up. What I meant was that the badge was later added altering the piece. It is a Civil War form of badge that was used in later wars, like the PI/American War. I apologize for any confusion.

6th April 2011, 11:40 PM	#18
Dimasalang Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 264	Agree with Ron. The Bugler badge could of been from a Spanish unit. Possibly captured from a Spanish unit during the 1st or 2nd phase of the 1896 Revolution. Also, many Spanish soldiers stayed in the Philippines after the revolution and switched sides to fight under Aguinaldos military against the Americans. And if the bugler emblem can be traced back to be American, it could of been captured from an American unit as well. Obviously, many soldiers on all sides were capturing and saving military artifacts from one another. I would like to think the emblem was captured from the enemy and used as the owners "anting anting". Well, at least that is the story I would tell people.

6th April 2011, 11:53 PM	#19
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	For me the engraved Guidon raises questions; sadly it lacks a number . Are these not traditionally cavalry flags ?

7th April 2011, 11:39 PM	#22
Dimasalang Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 264	I believe we found a match. Insignia of Spanish Light Infantry unit during the same era as the 1896 Revolution and the Span-Am War. Complements of William Combs website. http://www.agmohio.com/LRuniformshome.htm

8th April 2011, 12:33 AM	#23
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	I forgot about bill combs....

8th April 2011, 01:14 AM	#24
Ferguson Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kernersville, NC, USA Posts: 793	Good job Dimasalang! Steve

8th April 2011, 01:32 AM	#25
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	All right then ........... great find ! This begs the question . Who captured what here ?

8th April 2011, 09:15 PM	#26
carlos Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 737	Interisting knife , Fortunatelly I was the winner of the auction ( I,m sorry Steve ). When I saw the knife thought inmediatelly in the symbols of the blade, the hilt ( maybe from a bayonet or a saber ) and the sheath with the 3 ( I had sawn some shields similarsin a uniforms ). When I received I put more pictures. Thanks all for the comments best regards carlos

9th April 2011, 12:15 AM	#27
Ferguson Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kernersville, NC, USA Posts: 793	Congratulations Carlos! That's wonderful. Glad you got it. Let us know how you like it, and what you think of it. Steve

9th April 2011, 04:38 AM	#29
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Carlos, My congratulations for your acquiring this VERY interesting piece for your collection.!!! If I had more money to spend you would not have gotten off so cheap. Just kidding, I am very happy for you on being able to obtain this unique item. Myself I do not think the hilt was from another weapon but was purposely made for this knife. Rick, It is hard to say which way this went. As Dimasalang has suggested the insignia could have been captured from the Spanish and then used as a personnel "anting anting" or the other way around with the knife being captured by the Spanish and then personalized by who ever was in possession of it at that point in time. As for the lug at the end of the pommel that is a common trait for knives from Luzon and I do believe that this sheath is original to the knife. Dimasalang, Thank you so much for identifying this insignia (it was driving me nutz) as being Spanish in origin. The closest I could find was the button that I posted above but not the badge itself. Robert

9th April 2011, 04:34 PM	#30
carlos Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 737	Is possible that hilt was made with a pistol gun hilt? some similar like this... http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/public/01-trubia-1.pdf best regards carlos