Some doubts about european sword , german ?

carlos · 9th April 2017, 09:54 AM

This is my last adquisition, german sword with 32 in total length.
Do You have some information about age or name of this kind of sword ?
Thanks in avance
Carlos

Lee · 9th April 2017, 04:00 PM

First a caveat, I am straying quite a bit out of my comfort zone and you should not weigh my comments very heavily. Hopefully a forum member more knowledgeable about such swords will recognize exactly what your sword is and assist.

The blade appears to be very precisely made with a somewhat complex transition from a single-edged section just beyond the ricasso into a double-edged (one edge may be false) of flattened diamond cross section. From the markings and the cross section in the near half, I cannot help but wonder if this is a military blade from sometime in the 19th century even into the first decades of the 20th, when there was some revival of straight blades for the cavalry. The level and proficiency of the decoration and finish of the hilt does not come up to the standard of the blade. This makes me wonder if this might have been a composite made up in the late 19th or early 20th century when antique arms had a period of great popularity as decorations.

Now, why this should not be considered a final verdict: My first Scottish basket-hilt, bought in the early 1970s, is surely such a composite - like your sword, the blade is a very serious piece of work and more like a rapier blade than anything that should have a Scottish basket. And the basket is the military model of, if I remember correctly, 1828 - only half has been cut away so the sword would hang flat against the wall. Years later, however, I showed the very well regarded out-of-town dealer (where I had gotten the 'Scottish' sword) a proud recent acquisition from a gun show and he denounced and dismissed it as a worthless composite. Years later I bought a book in the same shop (pre-Internet days) that made it clear that my worthless 'made-up' composite was a great example of a Spanish colonial espada ancha.

So we will have to wait for the fat lady to sing.

thinreadline · 9th April 2017, 06:11 PM

I suppose it is meant to represent some vaguely landsknect type sword but the blade looks much more modern in style and in the markings ... perhaps late 19th C . To me ( and I am no expert on such things ) it looks like a home spun hilting of a 19th C sword blade .... made as a wall hanger / decorator or theatrical piece.

Hotspur · 9th April 2017, 06:41 PM

The blade is that of Clemen & Jung, registered in 1860.

Cheers

GC

thinreadline · 10th April 2017, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotspur

The blade is that of Clemen & Jung, registered in 1860.

Cheers

GC

Yes , well identified ... here is a picture of their trademark

Jim McDougall · 10th April 2017, 07:00 AM

Glen and Redline, spot on!!! Clemens & Jung, and as Lee astutely observed of course, a 19th century military blade. I agree this is most likely a theatrical item , and the much earlier period(s) purported by the hilt elements composite with a number at the forte (109) consistent with these kinds of circumstances with sword commerce in these times.

Lee, I very much related to the tale of the dealers who preyed on young collectors back in those days (for me mid 60s into 70s) and were masters of embellished stories to hawk their weapons. I too recall being hoodwinked out of some great items which were dismissed essentially as 'junk', only to discover years later to my dismay what they really were.
One of my most mourned losses was ....an espada ancha !!

Carlos, please know that while this sword may be a later theatrical piece, these are very much antiquities in their own right, and this may have been part of a famed theatrical group or theater in the late 19th c. There have been many remarkable items thought to be authentically early Spanish from areas here in the Southwest which have turned out to be theatrical yet have their own unique historical appeal.

corrado26 · 10th April 2017, 08:11 AM

The lion mark on the ricasso of the blade is the acceptance mark of the ministry of war of Hessen-Darmstadt in Germany.
corrado26

Foxbat · 11th April 2017, 04:59 AM

This is a poor quality late 19th century decorative piece in the Styrian style. Styria is the state in south-eastern part of Austria.

9th April 2017, 09:54 AM	#1
carlos Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 737	Some doubts about european sword , german ? This is my last adquisition, german sword with 32 in total length. Do You have some information about age or name of this kind of sword ? Thanks in avance Carlos Attached Images

9th April 2017, 06:41 PM	#4
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 498	The blade is that of Clemen & Jung, registered in 1860. Cheers GC Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 9th April 2017 at 08:27 PM. Reason: Sorry ... no links to active commercial sites

9th April 2017, 04:00 PM	#2
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 913	First a caveat, I am straying quite a bit out of my comfort zone and you should not weigh my comments very heavily. Hopefully a forum member more knowledgeable about such swords will recognize exactly what your sword is and assist. The blade appears to be very precisely made with a somewhat complex transition from a single-edged section just beyond the ricasso into a double-edged (one edge may be false) of flattened diamond cross section. From the markings and the cross section in the near half, I cannot help but wonder if this is a military blade from sometime in the 19th century even into the first decades of the 20th, when there was some revival of straight blades for the cavalry. The level and proficiency of the decoration and finish of the hilt does not come up to the standard of the blade. This makes me wonder if this might have been a composite made up in the late 19th or early 20th century when antique arms had a period of great popularity as decorations. Now, why this should not be considered a final verdict: My first Scottish basket-hilt, bought in the early 1970s, is surely such a composite - like your sword, the blade is a very serious piece of work and more like a rapier blade than anything that should have a Scottish basket. And the basket is the military model of, if I remember correctly, 1828 - only half has been cut away so the sword would hang flat against the wall. Years later, however, I showed the very well regarded out-of-town dealer (where I had gotten the 'Scottish' sword) a proud recent acquisition from a gun show and he denounced and dismissed it as a worthless composite. Years later I bought a book in the same shop (pre-Internet days) that made it clear that my worthless 'made-up' composite was a great example of a Spanish colonial espada ancha. So we will have to wait for the fat lady to sing.

9th April 2017, 06:11 PM	#3
thinreadline Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Wirral Posts: 1,204	I suppose it is meant to represent some vaguely landsknect type sword but the blade looks much more modern in style and in the markings ... perhaps late 19th C . To me ( and I am no expert on such things ) it looks like a home spun hilting of a 19th C sword blade .... made as a wall hanger / decorator or theatrical piece.

10th April 2017, 07:00 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Glen and Redline, spot on!!! Clemens & Jung, and as Lee astutely observed of course, a 19th century military blade. I agree this is most likely a theatrical item , and the much earlier period(s) purported by the hilt elements composite with a number at the forte (109) consistent with these kinds of circumstances with sword commerce in these times. Lee, I very much related to the tale of the dealers who preyed on young collectors back in those days (for me mid 60s into 70s) and were masters of embellished stories to hawk their weapons. I too recall being hoodwinked out of some great items which were dismissed essentially as 'junk', only to discover years later to my dismay what they really were. One of my most mourned losses was ....an espada ancha !! Carlos, please know that while this sword may be a later theatrical piece, these are very much antiquities in their own right, and this may have been part of a famed theatrical group or theater in the late 19th c. There have been many remarkable items thought to be authentically early Spanish from areas here in the Southwest which have turned out to be theatrical yet have their own unique historical appeal.

10th April 2017, 08:11 AM	#7
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,204	The lion mark on the ricasso of the blade is the acceptance mark of the ministry of war of Hessen-Darmstadt in Germany. corrado26

11th April 2017, 04:59 AM	#8
Foxbat Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 69	This is a poor quality late 19th century decorative piece in the Styrian style. Styria is the state in south-eastern part of Austria.