left hand sword

[clockwork]

I recently Picked this piece up on my travels. It is late early15 or 16 centry left hand sword. The writing is hungarian and was translated for me but I do not have the translation with me right now and will post it later. Solingen blade. Any comments about are apprecated.

[clockwork]

cpl more pics

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Clockwork,
Its great to see an outstanding sword example posted!!!! Would it be possible to reduce the picture size a bit though, I'd like to see the entire sword and clarify the shots of the markings. My vision ain't what it used to be
Apparantly the resolution just needs to be reduced.
Thats a fantastic example of the 'man in the moon' marking, and I've been trying to find more on its variations and earliest use.

Also, I'd like to know more on your perspective on the piece. Were any details included with the sword when you acquired it?

Thank you for posting this beauty, and I look forward to hearing more on it as well as the translation.

All the best,
Jim

[fernando]

Hi Tony,
Let's see what we have here ... may i ?
Are these allright for your eyes, old man ?
Fernando

.

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Clockwork,
Would it be possible to reduce the picture size a bit though, I'd like to see the entire sword and clarify the shots of the markings. My vision ain't what it used to be

All the best,
Jim

Hi Jim,

Assuming you use Windows, if you hit "Ctrl -" , the pictures will get smaller. Then use "Ctrl +" to enlarge

Bill


Clockwork,

Is this called a "left hand" sword because it was used as a parry weapon? If so what makes a parry weapon/sword different from a main sword?

[celtan]

On one side: Peter and Mary (Christ's Parents) In Solingen. The other: Henry Coel Fecit? Fecite? Me Fecit?

Nice piece!

M

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

... Is this called a "left hand" sword because it was used as a parry weapon? If so what makes a parry weapon/sword different from a main sword?

How long would the blade be ?
None of the pictures shows the entire piece.
Could it be that clockwork called it sword in the generic sense, but maybe refering to a left hand dagger ?
Fernando

[Ed]

A bit of detail on the mark. I will look for it when time permits.

Anybody have any ideas as to what it is?

Nice piece btw. Looks like the pieces are all contemporaneous. Say mid 16th perhaps?

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi Tony,
Let's see what we have here ... may i ?
Are these allright for your eyes, old man ?
Fernando

.

LOL!!! Much better ya rascal!!!!

Bill, thanks for the heads up on the ctrl key.....I'll get the hang of these magic boxes yet


Thank you guys!!!

All the best,
Jim

[celtan]

Geez! Christ's Parents! What a dumbo!

My apologies, I just re-read this and noticed my error. Then, of course, both names have theologic importance. While both Peter and Mary were cornerstones of Christianity. Joseph is almost never mentioned.

My grandma was a catholic fanatic, she would make the Vatican look like a bunch of liberals. Were she still around , I'd be now on my third thousandth hail mary. as penitence for my aspersions on Mary's virtuosity...

The first line still looks as a Hen Cóel, the second one I have no idea.

BTW, isn't that another version of those pesky multi-faceted urn pommels?

: )

Best


M

Originally Posted by celtan

On one side: Peter and Mary (Christ's Parents) In Solingen. The other: Henry Coel Fecit? Fecite? Me Fecit?

Nice piece!

M

[clockwork]

Thanks fernando

as for it being a left hand sword It is about 20" and not a full size sword.
I can not find the translation but was told that it was a religous saying and not sure but think it was a refrence to a pope at that time. FIDES JU GLON'A I will see if I can find out more on it. it also said Peter of Munich on it as well.
I have taken few more pics and will post them soon. I have come across the term Talisman Blade would this fit my blade?

[clockwork]

here are a few more pics this is small as I can make them since Im doing this at work. hope you like.

[G. McCormack]

That certainly is an odd speckled patina on the blade. Looks like from acid of some sort.

[clockwork]

I was told that it was treated with selenium dioxid 70%

[fearn]

I would suggest that it's something like a coustille, which is not a left-handed weapon, but rather an intermediate between a sword and a dagger, meant for close quarters or for where swords were not allowed, but daggers could be carried.

Coustilles were Renaissance weapons, and I'm not sure of the age on your specimen.

F

[fernando]

Originally Posted by fearn

... an intermediate between a sword and a dagger, meant for close quarters or for where swords were not allowed, but daggers could be carried ...

In a way, like the wakizachi for the Japanese ?!

[fearn]

Hi Fernando,

Kind of like a wakizashi, although I'd call it an "o tanto," in the sense that (as I understand it), a coustille is an outsized dagger, rather than a swordlet. Perhaps this is a questionable distinction?

Digging around a little more, I suspect that coustille is a name that Oakeshott came up with, so I don't know if it's the proper name for this weapon. Coustille does serve as a categorical name.

F

[Jim McDougall]

I have been trying to learn more on this interesting piece since its posting, and really appreciate the extra work on the photos!!! This piece is quite puzzling as it is described as a 'left hand sword', and I am presuming that what is meant, as questioned by Bill, that it was intended as a parrying weapon with the primary sword.
Its smaller size than a regular sword is indeed unusual, as this does look very much like German hand and a half swords which have about 28 inch or longer blades. I am presuming the blade length is 20" on Clockworks example.

This sword's hilt and overall appearance, especially downward crabs claw type quillons is strikingly similar to 'quillon daggers' of the 16th to 17th centuries of Italy c.1600 ("Wallace Collection Catalogs" , Sir James Mann, 1962, examples A795, A796 and A793). In the text describing these they are termed 'left hand daggers', and I mention them because of the similar hilts and use of the left hand term.

I have honestly not heard of a 'left hand sword' though left hand daggers which were typically made en suite with rapiers, and it seems that their purpose was for close in combat more than parrying. This would seem to eliminate the potential for a secondary or 'left hand' sword of this size for either purpose.

I agree with Fearn in his suggestion that this is probably a coustille, and thank him for bringing that in. In checking "Schools and Masters of Fence" (Egerton Castle, 1885, p.229) it is noted that one of the two kinds of single hand short swords, one is the 'coustils a croc', with "...straight double edged blades, and diminutives of swords or augmentatives of daggers".
Perhaps this might be one of the smaller versions of the hand and a half sword, or larger of the 'left hand daggers', hence the term describing it.

The well marked blade is a bit of an anomaly, which would by definition answer to a 'talismanic blade' because of the astrologic or 'magic' symbols on it. These symbols were applied to sword blades in the 17th century, and through the 18th because,as described by Howard Blackmore ("Hunting Weapons", 1971, p.41), "...in fighting and hunting the swordsman often needed more than confidence in the blade. It had to possess some mystical quality to spur him on to greater deeds or to bring him luck".
Peter Munsten of Solingen, as well as several others, used the half moon marking (Mann, op.cit. p.316) and the solar face as well as usually a star were often included in the groupings with ‘magical’ qualities . The ‘bishop with mitre’ image is believed to have been used by Peter Munich of Solingen c.1595-1660 (“Cut and Thrust Weapons” E.Wagner, 1967, p. 106) though those depicted in this reference are noticeably different.

Also, the script writing which reads ‘IN SOLIN GEN’ are split into two lines completely incongruently, which seems a bit suspect. While the half moon and solar face seem in line with markings described, the ‘star’ is of different style and placed away from the magical signs, with the ‘bishop’ between, as well as the incongruous script.

These ‘talismanic’ blades in my opinion evolved from the so called ‘calendar swords’ introduced in the early 16th century, on the blades of which were engraved a calendar of saints days often accompanied by zodiac symbols. These were originally placed on hunting swords, and according to Blackmore (op.cit. p.18) “…there was always a half mystical, half religious element in the art of hunting and results were considered likely to be better if the planets were in the right conjunction or if the sympathies of an appropriate saint properly solicited”.
By the middle of the 16th century, artists like Ambrosius Gemlich of Munich were specialists on these ‘calendar’ swords for hunting. This custom endured into the 17th century, and I believe the use of magical symbols on blades evolved into markings to accompany markings of the makers proclaiming blade quality. I believe the most prevalent use of these magical symbols was in Europe, primarily Germany, in the 18th century.

[clockwork]

WOW Jim that was a great read. I am still curious about the one marking at the base of the blade. Do you recognize it? I am trying to find references on these markings but having a hard time finding them on the net. Also would you agree that this is a late 15th or early 16th century blade from your research or do you think it is younger?

Thanks for all the imput from everyone.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Clockwork!!! I worked on finding the info for most of the day yesterday, and had great fun doing it! Its great when researching an item with such great potential, and intriguing elements. To me this is what antique weapons are all about....and they do indeed have stories to tell.

In writing all of the other material, I forgot to address that makers cartouche. In going through the resources I have, the closest I could find
was a similar marking, loosely resembling a cursive letter 'f', which was on a rapier of N.Italy c.1590 ("Wallace Collection Catalogs", op.cit. item A555). It is noted that the mark resembled the crozier head arms of the city of Basel. (crozier= the processional staff in Catholic regalia which represents the shepherds crook).

I think this suggests early 17th century period is quite possible for this piece, as that cartouche seem quite authentic to me in its placement. I have not yet checked the A.V.B.Norman reference for the prismatic pommel form. At this point it seems this piece may be early, most probably reworked and with more contemporary decorative (and talismanic) motif applied to the blade.
As noted the script appears quite incongruent with the word Solingen split on two lines, and as far as I know most authentic Solingen inscriptions use the Latin Me Fecit Solingen, or in some cases 'en' Solingen, not 'in' Solingen.

Possibly an earlier piece later 'embellished' ?

All best regards,
Jim

[clockwork]

Thanks for all the great work Jim I plan on heading back to Budapest in a month back to the dealer that I purchased it from and will see if I can pump him for any more information on the blade. I was wondering if you have any idea what this marking means?

[Jim McDougall]

I cant really make that out , its a bit dark, and partially obscured by several pitted spots. My guess would be it seems like a flourish of some kind rather than a distinct symbolic image, but that only adds to the anomaly of the somewhat eclectic markings overall.
I look forward to hearing more on what the dealer has to say. In reviewing the makers cartouche I think that while the example I noted has similarity, it is not the same, so best to consider for period reference.

Please keep us posted OK?

All the best,
Jim

[clockwork]

Sure thing. I might post a few other pieces I have in the future also, but they are not as nice as this one.