17th February 2007, 03:52 PM | #1 |
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KERIS WITH IVORY HILT
HELLO!!
THIS IS MY LAST ADQUISITION, A BEAUTIFUL KERIS WITH IVORY HILT. THE SHETH IS INCOMPLETED BUT THE KERIS IS GOOD. I BOUGHT IT TO A SELLER TOLD ME IT WAS A AFRICAN KNIFE !! AND I PAID 90 DOLLARS !! I HOPE YOU ENJOY WITH THE KERIS!! THANKS FOR THE INFORMATION CARLOS |
17th February 2007, 06:38 PM | #2 |
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Nice catch Carlos. The blade isn't extraordinary, but it is a good solid example of a gonjo iras blade with what is to my eye a rather attractive profile. Shame about the sheath, though it does look like those might actually be silver fittings. It would be impossible to have a top sheath carved for this, though matching and fitting everything might be difficult. But the hilt alone is worth way more than you paid for the whole thing so i would say you did well. Looks Sumatran to me, maybe Minang Kabau based on the hilt form. How long is the blade?
Last edited by David; 17th February 2007 at 08:14 PM. |
17th February 2007, 08:06 PM | #3 |
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thanks
THANKS FOR THE INFORMATION, I LOVE THE IVORY HILTS, THIS IS THE REASON I´M VERY HAPPY WITH THIS KERIS.
THE BLADE HAS 11.5 INCH. REGARDS CARLOS |
18th February 2007, 01:27 AM | #4 |
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Hi,
Judging from the blade form and hilt, I would associate it with Lampung, South Sumatra. As I hear from more senior collectors here in Singapore, the hilt has "Mickey Mouse ears"; It is quite a distinctive form. Most Minang Kabau kerises, which I would consider more Central Sumatra, are of the bahari form and seldom ganja iras. Non-bahari Minang kerises tend to look more Bugis than Javanese. South Sumatra kerises tend to have a more Javanese look to it. Like any generalisations, there would be exceptions to these assertions. |
18th February 2007, 02:49 AM | #5 |
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Yeah, I thought it looked a bit South Sumateraish too.
That type of blade seems to be associated with that part of the world more so than with other places. |
18th February 2007, 01:43 PM | #6 |
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Yep, i am sure you guys are probably right on this one. At least i was on the right island.
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22nd February 2007, 02:50 PM | #7 |
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The 'mickey mouse' hilt form, spans quite a large geographical region in Sumatra. There are examples on Palembang, Minang and many other pieces.
Adni's classification of hilt forms had identified the hilt as Minangkbau, (based on Malay Art Gallery archives.) Michael (VVV) have examples of this hilt form on various types of Sumatran keris. On a Minangkabau's keris: http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_album.php On a Palembang keris: http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_album.php In Van Duuren's, The Kris, Page 54, there is a similar form which mentioned it as from South Sumatra. In Kerner's, Keris-Griffe - Aus Dem Malayischen Archipel, Page 52, Fig: 40, another 'mickey mouse' but only indicated as from Sumatra. As for whatever left of the sheath, and the blade, it seems Central Sumatra to me. "Ganja Iras" is a purpose-built piece. Where it was believed, with proper ritual, could be used to penetrate an 'invincible' warrior, (those that practices a kind of mystical 'warrior-magic'). Others have stated before that it is a short-cut, cost saving means... etc. However, in the Malay mystic world, it hold certain values. |
22nd February 2007, 07:58 PM | #8 | |
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Quote:
This info on gonjo iras is very interesting to me. As you state, we have had this discussion before and i have never been quite satisfied with the answers. If you have more information on the Malay mystical world view of these type of keris i would love to hear it. |
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23rd February 2007, 01:40 AM | #9 | |
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More research...
Quote:
Last edited by Alam Shah; 23rd February 2007 at 02:57 AM. Reason: spelling |
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23rd February 2007, 02:49 AM | #10 |
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By the length of the blae and its form, it's a Bahari. It's quite rare for Bahari blades to come in ganja iras form, methinks.
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23rd February 2007, 03:02 AM | #11 |
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Rahman, could you please explain why you would classify this blade form as bahari?
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23rd February 2007, 03:28 AM | #12 |
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Here is a link to a thread that displays a rather extraordinary keris bahari:
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001237.html And i have attached another more standard example fro, Dominique's site. I don't see a similarity in form to the keris that started this thread. Am i missing something? |
23rd February 2007, 03:33 AM | #13 | |
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Sheath's crosspiece model...
Quote:
It should look something like this. (Picture courtesy of VVV). |
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23rd February 2007, 03:55 AM | #14 |
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Oops! That was a typo on my part. I had meant to write that it would be possible which is why i followed it up with "though matching and fitting everything might be difficult". Though come to think of it, it really wouldn't be anymore difficult than making a sheath from scratch. Not that it is ever an easy job.
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26th February 2007, 04:10 AM | #15 |
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Sorry David for not replying earlier.
The sorsoran does have some similarity. Although most baharis tend to be thein and slender, this one has a nice waist (pinggang) that you do find among some baharis. It was my immediate reaction. I could be wrong, though. Carlos -- how long is the blade, anyway? |
26th February 2007, 03:37 PM | #16 | |
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blade
Quote:
Is 11.5 inch., if you need more pictures i can make more. Thanks Carlos |
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2nd March 2007, 03:38 AM | #17 |
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No, I stand corrected. It's would be much too long to be a bahari.
Sorry! |
2nd March 2007, 01:35 PM | #18 | |
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I have a anak alang that is just under 16", but i have also seen keris listed as anak alang as short as 12" or 13". Most of the full length panjangs i have seen are over 20". So there appears to be a little bit of cross-over. Are some of these blades being mis-catagorized? How specific are these length limits? Could they be a bit different depending upon origin of the blade? Are there any other attribute other than length that distinguish a bahari from a anak alang from a full length panjang? |
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2nd March 2007, 02:39 PM | #19 | |
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As far as classifications are concerned, there is no fixed length (contrary to my previous post of long ago). The thing about blades from these regions are, the moment you try to classify them, one suddenly pops up to 'defy' classification. The main reason I believe, may be due to te absence of standards to conform to, like the pakem of javanese kerises. This blade form is not bahari class, imho. Last edited by Alam Shah; 2nd March 2007 at 03:25 PM. |
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2nd March 2007, 02:55 PM | #20 | |
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As far as you know Shahrial (or anyone else ) is there any specifically different cultural importance to the three different blades in this class? Why would someone commission a bahari as opposed to an anak alang for instance. The full length panjang are know as "executioner" keris, but this certainly wasn't their main purpose for being. |
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2nd March 2007, 04:27 PM | #21 | ||
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Quote:
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The bahari common in Sumatra than in Peninsular Malaysia. There are slight differences in material and other details from these two regions. Just compare a typical minangkabau bahari with a peninsular anak alang... (of course there are countless variation in between), what can you tell? Above: A Peninsular Malay anak alang (courtesy of MAG). Below: A Minangkabau bahari (courtesy of VVV). As you can see, it's quite similar, with slight differences . Last edited by Alam Shah; 2nd March 2007 at 11:17 PM. Reason: grammar and clarity... |
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2nd March 2007, 05:55 PM | #22 | |
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2nd March 2007, 11:26 PM | #23 | |
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2nd March 2007, 11:29 PM | #24 | |
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Keris panjang, "executioner" keris purpose
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3rd March 2007, 01:24 AM | #25 | |
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4th March 2007, 09:43 AM | #26 |
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Sorry, gang, let me just try to reframe this discussion so poor Carlos can have his answers
My first impression looking at the full profile and a bit of the fittings in the photos made me feel it is a bahari. By saying it's too long to be a bahari does not mean that I think Carlos' blade is an anak alang either. Many Sumatran baharis display a 'tapering waist'. This is quite rare among anak alangs, on either side of the Malacca Straits. Another thing that I missed is the fairly deep picitan on Carlos' blade. So, please, I withdraw all remarks about baharis and anak alangs in this thread. thanks. |
4th March 2007, 01:53 PM | #27 | |
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Quote:
If you look carefully, you are seeing 2 stylistically similar but different hilt forms. The examples you have placed there have ears which don't flare out, but goes straight up the head. A "U" shape. Carlos' keris hilt has ears that flare out. A "V" shape. Here's another example, though I apologize I only have the side view of it. This hilt is in Paul De Souza's collection. It is a wide "V" shape. Another thing we can take note - the eyes are different. The minang hilts have more bulging eyes while the "lampung-style" hilts are more "se-daging" (flush with the form) defined by shallow lines. The blade is not a bahari or an anak alang in my opinion. The greneng doesn't look appropriate. The gandik is too broad and high. The blade is too broad and flat. |
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4th March 2007, 03:21 PM | #28 | |
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There may be minor disagreements which might never resolve themselves completely, but i have found that to be the nature of most keris discussions. At least now we can all agree that his keris is not a bahari or anak alang. Interestingly, my anak alang does display a somewhat "tapering waist". Kai Wee, thanks for getting more specific about the diferences between Lumpung and Minang hilts in this form. I think these subtle differences are sometimes difficult to discern and i have a feeling that many of these hilts get misrepresented in books, auctions and websites. I am sure i have seen the ones with the more bulging eyes described as Lumpung and vice versa. Great research. |
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4th March 2007, 03:36 PM | #29 | |
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Kai Wee,
Good keen observation... . After a long hard look, I do agree. Thanks for pointing it out. Lampung it is then. Quote:
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4th March 2007, 03:57 PM | #30 | ||
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Tapering waist...
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(courtesy of VVV) http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/albums/...mp_j.sized.jpg http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/albums/...bahl.sized.jpg (courtesy of BluErf) http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/albums/...lade_whole.jpg Quote:
An example of a Riau Anak Alang, (with the 'tapering waist'). (courtesy of Malay Art Gallery). http://www.geocities.com/keris4u/ker...riau_perak.htm Last edited by Alam Shah; 4th March 2007 at 04:10 PM. |
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