Five elements in a mendahk, is it magic?

[HughChen]

Three of them look like teeth and paper and wood, the other two have't been identified.

[David]

Very interesting. I have never seen that before. I would love to have a better analysis of exactly what has been placed in there, but i am afraid that it would probably not possible to put it all back together again afterwards.

[HughChen]

the hilt is like a wizard (the third one)

[HughChen]

Originally Posted by David

Very interesting. I have never seen that before. I would love to have a better analysis of exactly what has been placed in there, but i am afraid that it would probably not possible to put it all back together again afterwards.

It's amazing that no one know anything about this or want to say anything about this if one knows in the forum.

[Interested Party]

Hugh good pictures would help. I honestly have no idea who the third hilt is supposed to represent. Off the top of the head, it could be one of the embassies of Islam to Java, a Hindu sage, or simply an ancestor. The third hilt shows a person in profile. the hair is dressed. this usually signals a signifies a character of non-demonic origin. The eye I can see is round. In wayang the eye shape reflects the characters inter spiritual state. The wider and rounder the eye the less spiritually centered the character is. In hilts it seems less of a hard and fast rule as Bayu has round eyes and looks straight ahead and not to down and/or to the side. To my understanding bulging eyes on hilts are usually demonic. Mr. Maisey says the newer the hilt the harder the identification. This hilt has angularly carved lines and little visible wear that I can see. Maybe Jean or Marco will chime in. They both have spent a lot of time researching culturally diverse hilts.

A question to the forum: would I be off base thinking that this hilt has Sumatran influences in the pattering of the vegetative motifs?

To reiterate more pictures of better quality and multiple angles would help garner responses to your questions.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by HughChen

It's amazing that no one know anything about this or want to say anything about this if one knows in the forum.

A Guess.
Hugh, I wonder if it's a Talisman, Azimat, Magic charm or something in that line.

[David]

It could just be that it is not photographed well enough, but the mendhak shown in the close-up does not look like the same mendhak you show in the photo with the 3 other keris. I probably is, but the one shown in the last photo looks much more crushed and i cannot see the ring with the granular beads around the edge that is closest to the blade.
What Rick has stated is most probably true, that these objects were placed in there for a talismanic purpose. Possibly there is something written on the folded paper. However, even if we knew exactly what each of these items were there is no guarantee that would lead us to a clear conclusion as to the exact purpose of this act. In most cases talismans like this offer a protective agency, but the specifics reasons for this would almost certainly be personal and known only to the original owner of the keris.
As for the hilt, it is not a form i am particularly familiar with, but IP has taken some good guesses. I don't think it is Sumatran though. Possibly East or North Jawa. What little i can see of the blade suggests East Jawa/Madura. I think we can rule out a demon or a god, and for me i don't see a wizard here. The body has been abstracted so it is difficult to know what body position the figure is striking (standing, crouching, etc.).
If you can provide better, more detailed photos of the hilt showing all sides of it then people might be able to make a better assessment.

[Interested Party]

Originally Posted by David

I don't think it is Sumatran though. Possibly East or North Jawa. What little i can see of the blade suggests East Jawa/Madura. I think we can rule out a demon or a god, and for me i don't see a wizard here. The body has been abstracted so it is difficult to know what body position the figure is striking (standing, crouching, etc.).

Thank you David. I am flattered. Especially as I didn't have time to comb through and cite references. East or North Jawa is exactly what I was getting at. If I remember correctly North Jawa and Sumatra influenced each other's hilts and something about the cut of the spirals made me think not Sumatra but Sumatran influence.

A front, back, and other side shot of the hilt would be very useful.

[HughChen]

Originally Posted by Interested Party

Hugh good pictures would help. I honestly have no idea who the third hilt is supposed to represent. Off the top of the head, it could be one of the embassies of Islam to Java, a Hindu sage, or simply an ancestor. The third hilt shows a person in profile. the hair is dressed. this usually signals a signifies a character of non-demonic origin. The eye I can see is round. In wayang the eye shape reflects the characters inter spiritual state. The wider and rounder the eye the less spiritually centered the character is. In hilts it seems less of a hard and fast rule as Bayu has round eyes and looks straight ahead and not to down and/or to the side. To my understanding bulging eyes on hilts are usually demonic. Mr. Maisey says the newer the hilt the harder the identification. This hilt has angularly carved lines and little visible wear that I can see. Maybe Jean or Marco will chime in. They both have spent a lot of time researching culturally diverse hilts.

A question to the forum: would I be off base thinking that this hilt has Sumatran influences in the pattering of the vegetative motifs?

To reiterate more pictures of better quality and multiple angles would help garner responses to your questions.

More pics

[HughChen]

More pics

[HughChen]

Originally Posted by David

It could just be that it is not photographed well enough, but the mendhak shown in the close-up does not look like the same mendhak you show in the photo with the 3 other keris. I probably is, but the one shown in the last photo looks much more crushed and i cannot see the ring with the granular beads around the edge that is closest to the blade.
What Rick has stated is most probably true, that these objects were placed in there for a talismanic purpose. Possibly there is something written on the folded paper. However, even if we knew exactly what each of these items were there is no guarantee that would lead us to a clear conclusion as to the exact purpose of this act. In most cases talismans like this offer a protective agency, but the specifics reasons for this would almost certainly be personal and known only to the original owner of the keris.
As for the hilt, it is not a form i am particularly familiar with, but IP has taken some good guesses. I don't think it is Sumatran though. Possibly East or North Jawa. What little i can see of the blade suggests East Jawa/Madura. I think we can rule out a demon or a god, and for me i don't see a wizard here. The body has been abstracted so it is difficult to know what body position the figure is striking (standing, crouching, etc.).
If you can provide better, more detailed photos of the hilt showing all sides of it then people might be able to make a better assessment.

Sorry David, the mendahk has been repaired. In the picture with several keris it hadn't been repaired and was squeezed。

[HughChen]

more pics

[A. G. Maisey]

Perhaps these little bits of material were put in place in order to achieve a neat mating of the mendak to the hilt.

[milandro]

We will probably never know what the meaning of those objects in the mendak is.

These probably represent personal convictions or superstitions which have meaning only to one person who has the key to interpreter this personal ritual as opposed to codified and established ritualised symbols which a whole group understands and would recognise.

On a general term neither the mendak nor the kris seem to be , otherwise, especially noteworthy. The hilt too, while nicely carved , doesn't strike me as being very old or being particularly emblematic of being any special character. Maybe I am wrong but I just don't see it.

[HughChen]

Originally Posted by milandro

We will probably never know what the meaning of those objects in the mendak is.

These probably represent personal convictions or superstitions which have meaning only to one person who has the key to interpreter this personal ritual as opposed to codified and established ritualised symbols which a whole group understands and would recognise.

On a general term neither the mendak nor the kris seem to be , otherwise, especially noteworthy. The hilt too, while nicely carved , doesn't strike me as being very old or being particularly emblematic of being any special character. Maybe I am wrong but I just don't see it.

Maybe that is the only answer. It doesn't belong to any Keris culture, it's something else coincidently happens in a Keris.

[David]

Originally Posted by HughChen

Maybe that is the only answer. It doesn't belong to any Keris culture, it's something else coincidently happens in a Keris.

I would not go so far as to say it doesn't belong to any keris culture just because we cannot absolutely identify who the figure represent. I do agree with Milandro though that this is a more recent, 20th century figural carving and with more recent hilts there is a tendency for them to be less connected to identifiable characters.
Here is a hilt i have which i believe might be North Jawa, though others might have a different origin. It does bear some resemblence to your hilt in that it is an armless and legless figure with some vegetal abstraction, however it does not display the same hair style, but rather the long flowing hair that we generally associate with Buta Bajang hilts.

[HughChen]

Originally Posted by David

I would not go so far as to say it doesn't belong to any keris culture just because we cannot absolutely identify who the figure represent. I do agree with Milandro though that this is a more recent, 20th century figural carving and with more recent hilts there is a tendency for them to be less connected to identifiable characters.
Here is a hilt i have which i believe might be North Jawa, though others might have a different origin. It does bear some resemblence to your hilt in that it is an armless and legless figure with some vegetal abstraction, however it does not display the same hair style, but rather the long flowing hair that we generally associate with Buta Bajang hilts.

Thank you David, I also have a similar one

[Interested Party]

Originally Posted by HughChen

Thank you David, I also have a similar one

Sorta. I have seen some scholars who associate the vegetal pattern of David's hilt with traditional animist forest spirits. Both are pretty hilts! I have a particular affinity for the North Coast style David shows.

I am surprised no one has mentioned the five elements of wood, earth water and metal in relation to the mendak. Or the more western elements of earth, fire, air, water, space.

EDIT: The Hindu/Buddhist elements correspond to the Aristotelian elements more or less: Agni (fire), Akasha, Ap (water), Prithvi (earth), Vayu (wind or air)

[Interested Party]

Based on post #9, third picture down. If the bottom left is a clear crystal it could represent water in the Chinese system and Aether/Askha in the other systems. If the three o'clock item is flint or chert it could be fire or earth. I am not sure what the other items are though the bottom right looks to be clay. The top could be paper thus wood, and/or it could have something written on it? The 9 o'clock item is a complete mystery to me. We would be missing metal or Ap/water and Bayu/air depending on which system we were using.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Interested Party

The 9 o'clock item is a complete mystery to me.

Looks like a shark tooth to my eyes!?

[Interested Party]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Looks like a shark tooth to my eyes!?

That crossed my mind, but I hope the owner would chime in. I couldn't even guess at the texture of the object when I viewed it objectively.

[David]

A lot of guessing going on here. I will say that it would be a pretty small shark's tooth if that is what it is. I'd also say that unless Hugh is willing to dissect this and remove all the pieces for closer examination we can just keep on guessing what these objects are all day. And of course, even after positive identification, the actual intent here would probably remain only a guess as well. So the question here is do we undo what has been done here or leave it be. Frankly the mendhak is pretty damaged. If it was my keris i might be inclined to replace it in the ensemble. If it was going to leave it on the keris i would probably not consider taking it apart, but if i were to retire it it might be interesting to see if more information is available. For instance, is there anything written on the paper. But ultimately these decision will be upo to Hugh and i respect his choices either way.

[Interested Party]

I thought it was an interesting game of speculation and seeing if the elements fit neatly into one of the larger systems of thought. I think the answer is, "no they do not." It also served as a refresher for information I had not pondered in many years. David, I believe you are right that we will never know for certain what this was intended to be. To me it seemed that if a probable makeup of the objects was determined, then a likely ethnic group of the previous owner could be guessed at. On the technical side I have been curious what the medium that all the objects are held in. A very fibrous cutler's resin? I am very conservative and would not damage the history to try to find the actual nature of the objects.

[A. G. Maisey]

May I most gently suggest that a careful reading of posts #3, #9, #11, #13 might be of some value?