2 TIBETAN KNIVES FOR COMMENT

BANDOOK · 30th January 2017, 10:02 AM

HERE ARE 2 TIBETAN KNIFES ,HAS ANYONE SEEN THESE TYPE BEFORE,THEY HAVE BONE HANDLES AND NICE PATINA
REGARDS RAJESH

BANDOOK · 30th January 2017, 10:06 AM

[QUOTE=BANDOOK]HERE ARE 2 TIBETAN KNIFES ,HAS ANYONE SEEN THESE TYPE BEFORE,THEY HAVE BONE HANDLES AND NICE PATINA
ANY IDEA OF AGE AND TRIBES,ETC
REGARDS RAJESH

colin henshaw · 30th January 2017, 06:09 PM

Interesting pieces. I havn't seen this form before, so unfortunately can't help with further identification.

Could the blades have started out life as something else ?

Regards.

Battara · 31st January 2017, 01:18 AM

This thread is closed pending further investigation.

Battara · 2nd February 2017, 12:57 AM

Thread now open again.

BANDOOK · 2nd February 2017, 10:33 AM

THANKS JOSE,FOR REOPENING THE DISCUSSION
I NOW OWN THE 2 KNIFES SO WOULD LIKE TO KNOW MORE ABOUT THEM IF ANY ONE KNOWS ABOUT THESE TYPE,KIND REGARDS
RAJESH

BANDOOK · 3rd February 2017, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BANDOOK

THANKS JOSE,FOR REOPENING THE DISCUSSION
I NOW OWN THE 2 KNIFES SO WOULD LIKE TO KNOW MORE ABOUT THEM IF ANY ONE KNOWS ABOUT THESE TYPE,KIND REGARDS
RAJESH

SPOKE TO THE PREVIOUS OWNER OF THESE KNIFES HE TOLD ME HE BOUGHT IT IN A MARKET IN BEIJING ABOUT 13 YEARS AGO FROM A TIBETAN VENDOR WHO HAD LOTS OF UNUSUAL STUFFFROM TIBET AND MONGOLIA,ABOUT SIX YEARS BACK THAT MARKET HAS CLOSED DOWN.
CHEERS

ausjulius · 9th February 2017, 12:09 PM

hi, its not from tibet or mongolian.
probably from some other group further east.

Tim Simmons · 10th February 2017, 08:49 PM

These blades look very much like the far east Chinese Arctic blades I saw at the Grassi Museum Leipzig . I post a photo on a thread but would not know what the tile was.

Tim Simmons · 10th February 2017, 09:03 PM

This is it. The blade form and decoration seem to fit.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21018

mross · 10th February 2017, 10:16 PM

What is the pattern down the fuller? Is it etched or a twist core?

josh stout · 11th February 2017, 03:29 AM

They look like Chinese knives to me, perhaps a minority, but not Tibetan/Mongol.

BANDOOK · 11th February 2017, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

This is it. The blade form and decoration seem to fit.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21018

THANKS TIM HAS A LOT OF SIMILARITY,CHEERS

BANDOOK · 11th February 2017, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by josh stout

They look like Chinese knives to me, perhaps a minority, but not Tibetan/Mongol.

THANKS JOSH COULD BE A ETHNIC GROUP FROM CHINA,A FRIEND OF MINE WHO VISITS TIBET OFTEN TOLD ME ITS YAK BONE,BUT UNSURE,CHEERS..

BANDOOK · 11th February 2017, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ausjulius

hi, its not from tibet or mongolian.
probably from some other group further east.

THANKS AUSJULIUS,SOME ONE WILL ABLE TO TELL EXACT ORIGIN OF THESE,CHEERS

Sajen · 12th February 2017, 10:50 AM

Can't help with the exact origin but can add a very similar dagger which ended recently by ebay. Overall 10", blade 5 1/2".

Tim Simmons · 12th February 2017, 12:42 PM

I cannot add a link as I have a new Apple Mac and have not mastered it. Go to youtube and enter Yakut or Evenki knives. Lots to see even one like "shakethetrees" post. Your knives have more Chinese influence.

BANDOOK · 13th February 2017, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

I cannot add a link as I have a new Apple Mac and have not mastered it. Go to youtube and enter Yakut or Evenki knives. Lots to see even one like "shakethetrees" post. Your knives have more Chinese influence.

THANKS TIM,WILL CHECK,CHEERS

BANDOOK · 13th February 2017, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Can't help with the exact origin but can add a very similar dagger which ended recently by ebay. Overall 10", blade 5 1/2".

THANKS SAJEN,ITS VERY SIMILAR TYPE LIKE MINE,CHEERS

Sajen · 13th February 2017, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BANDOOK

THANKS SAJEN,ITS VERY SIMILAR TYPE LIKE MINE,CHEERS

You're welcome! I've post it because it could shed some light on it regarding the origin, there are not so many areas where ray skin was used by scabbards.

Regards,
Detlef

Tim Simmons · 13th February 2017, 05:03 PM

Youtube
https://youtu.be/og-ggWd3IGM

BANDOOK · 14th February 2017, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Youtube
https://youtu.be/og-ggWd3IGM

THANKS TIM,NICE VIDEO
REGARDS RAJESH

Miguel · 22nd February 2017, 04:46 PM

Hello Bandook, I wonder if the Yakut are in any way related to the Sammi as their working knives seem to have a similar simple and robust construction.
Regards Miguel

BANDOOK · 23rd February 2017, 10:40 AM

HI MIGUEL,WE NEED TO CHECK THAT CONNECTION,POSSIBLE MIGRATION OVER MANY YEARS,ANY THING IS POSSIBLE WITH THE EXCHANGE OF CULTURE,KIND REGARDS RAJESH

ausjulius · 30th March 2024, 09:14 AM

hey a bit late to this thread, these are not tibetan knvies.. they are chinese muslim Hui knives, a conglomerate of different groups of chinese people converted by persian and arab muslim traders and missionaries and descended by arab and persians the mongols brought to eastern china, they were mostly used in the administration whenever the nomads invaded the chinese..

these chinese muslims had a higher social position in the mongol, manchus ect states than the ethnic chinese in general and were typically able to bare arms and had a much greater freedom of movement , being a small rather nonhomogeneous group dependent on the occupying force for their livelihood.

they also travelled abroad freely for hajj, trade ect. and so were the catalyst for chinese nationalism in the 19th century that rebelled against the collapsing occupying manchu state because of their access to weapons, better education than the general population and access to external information and their positions in the government and their greater freedom of movement.
their was various attempts by the hui to secure a posiiton of power both when the mongols collapsed and when the manchus did..

they made up the bulk of the warlords with the collapse of the manchu state,
even forming some caliphates in the 19th century and being the vast majority of the warlords fighting with the japanese and the communists.

they are a curious ethnogroup.

they are historically urban peoples, traders and employees of the state and were employed by the nomads to maintain their rule in urban settings in many places. this caused the group to generally be very dispersed throughout china.
Linxia is their current epicenter but historcally they had large populations in yunan, suchuan, guangdong, shanghai , beijing ect ect .. due to war and being targeted specifically over the centuries their population is much smaller than it was historically. the japanese had a particularly ruthless attitude towards them in eastern china as did the communists.

they had a mix of chinese and nomads bladed tools and weapons and you can see images of hui wearing large belt knives like the mongols and manchus do.
over time a some stypes of knives appeared that combined middle eastern, chinese and nomad traditions.
these include the products of the bonan people another interesting very small hybrid group of similar origins specialising in making knives and swords
the hui items have a distinct look and probably influenced chines items in general
you can see the rivets have flowers or wheels spoke Patterns on them, this is something distinct to chinese weapons. the fullering is very much middle eastern, persian ect in style and the blades with have chinese mosaic in them and sometimes a middle eastern inspired cartouche .
the Baldes are often very thick.
the sheaths will be a mix of middle eastern and nomad in style many times with a pointed chape more as a persian or afghan knife not a blunt mongol tip .
you can even see these middle eastern and central asian influences even on cantonese "butterfly" swords some times. riveted bone handles cartouches in the blades fullers doing uturns at the ricasso ect.

these leaf shaped knives can be long too up to 60 centimeters. similar in size to the long mongol knives. or they can be tiny in size .
ive also see examples with asymmetrical fullering like uzbek knives and caucascan knives sometimes have.

these is also double edged dagger versions of these and long narrow versions like a tibetan dagger.
some times they will have chinese writing on them , ive seem them also with arabic and manchu writing as well.

anyway considering the dispersed population of the hui and the nonhomogeneous nature of their culture and the fact that they are traders buying and selling items and trading and ordering goods from other ethnic groups they trade with id say these knives were not recognized as distinctly their own but something that came out of their population in general.
for example ive see quite a few marked as coming from yunan and Sichuan in collections or from hui in burma. but then their is others that have clear arsenal marks from armories in beijing ect.

its a sort of hybrid knives for several different cultures.

Tim Simmons · 30th March 2024, 06:01 PM

I was not that far off the mark.

ausjulius · 7th April 2024, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

I was not that far off the mark.

yeah think you could say these style of knives are a product of the Manchus empire mixing different features of knives form various ethnic groups that made it up.

my presumption that they were common among hui is mainly because they were many times armed by the state, you can see photos of them with these knives... and these are many times government issued products.
id say proper info on these is just so vague.

its like the Chinese made copies of the Mongol styled belt knives but with a chopstick set and many times with stone or exotic handles. these just vanished almost overnight when the society and state that caused the development of these things vanished.
now these knives are obscure and uncommon and little is known about where they were made- many appear mass produced probably in the same place. their history unknown- although they were made in huge numbers at one point and traded widely... but the users of them - many times nomads just sharpened them down and used them and in the urban areas those who had them are now long gone as are the knives themselves and the society they were made for.

30th January 2017, 10:02 AM	#1
BANDOOK Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: AUCKLAND,NEW ZEALAND Posts: 624	2 TIBETAN KNIVES FOR COMMENT HERE ARE 2 TIBETAN KNIFES ,HAS ANYONE SEEN THESE TYPE BEFORE,THEY HAVE BONE HANDLES AND NICE PATINA REGARDS RAJESH Attached Images

30th January 2017, 10:06 AM	#2
BANDOOK Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: AUCKLAND,NEW ZEALAND Posts: 624	2 TIBETAN KNIFES FOR COMMENT [QUOTE=BANDOOK]HERE ARE 2 TIBETAN KNIFES ,HAS ANYONE SEEN THESE TYPE BEFORE,THEY HAVE BONE HANDLES AND NICE PATINA ANY IDEA OF AGE AND TRIBES,ETC REGARDS RAJESH Attached Images

10th February 2017, 09:03 PM	#10
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	This is it. The blade form and decoration seem to fit. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21018 Attached Images

12th February 2017, 10:50 AM	#16
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,788	Can't help with the exact origin but can add a very similar dagger which ended recently by ebay. Overall 10", blade 5 1/2". Attached Images

30th January 2017, 06:09 PM	#3
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Interesting pieces. I havn't seen this form before, so unfortunately can't help with further identification. Could the blades have started out life as something else ? Regards.

31st January 2017, 01:18 AM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	This thread is closed pending further investigation.

2nd February 2017, 12:57 AM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Thread now open again.

2nd February 2017, 10:33 AM	#6
BANDOOK Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: AUCKLAND,NEW ZEALAND Posts: 624	THANKS JOSE,FOR REOPENING THE DISCUSSION I NOW OWN THE 2 KNIFES SO WOULD LIKE TO KNOW MORE ABOUT THEM IF ANY ONE KNOWS ABOUT THESE TYPE,KIND REGARDS RAJESH

9th February 2017, 12:09 PM	#8
ausjulius Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: musorian territory Posts: 424	hi, its not from tibet or mongolian. probably from some other group further east.

10th February 2017, 08:49 PM	#9
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	These blades look very much like the far east Chinese Arctic blades I saw at the Grassi Museum Leipzig . I post a photo on a thread but would not know what the tile was.

10th February 2017, 10:16 PM	#11
mross Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 478	What is the pattern down the fuller? Is it etched or a twist core?

11th February 2017, 03:29 AM	#12
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	They look like Chinese knives to me, perhaps a minority, but not Tibetan/Mongol.

12th February 2017, 12:42 PM	#17
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I cannot add a link as I have a new Apple Mac and have not mastered it. Go to youtube and enter Yakut or Evenki knives. Lots to see even one like "shakethetrees" post. Your knives have more Chinese influence.

13th February 2017, 05:03 PM	#21
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Youtube https://youtu.be/og-ggWd3IGM

22nd February 2017, 04:46 PM	#23
Miguel Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 584	Hello Bandook, I wonder if the Yakut are in any way related to the Sammi as their working knives seem to have a similar simple and robust construction. Regards Miguel

23rd February 2017, 10:40 AM	#24
BANDOOK Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: AUCKLAND,NEW ZEALAND Posts: 624	HI MIGUEL,WE NEED TO CHECK THAT CONNECTION,POSSIBLE MIGRATION OVER MANY YEARS,ANY THING IS POSSIBLE WITH THE EXCHANGE OF CULTURE,KIND REGARDS RAJESH

30th March 2024, 09:14 AM	#25
ausjulius Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: musorian territory Posts: 424	hey a bit late to this thread, these are not tibetan knvies.. they are chinese muslim Hui knives, a conglomerate of different groups of chinese people converted by persian and arab muslim traders and missionaries and descended by arab and persians the mongols brought to eastern china, they were mostly used in the administration whenever the nomads invaded the chinese.. these chinese muslims had a higher social position in the mongol, manchus ect states than the ethnic chinese in general and were typically able to bare arms and had a much greater freedom of movement , being a small rather nonhomogeneous group dependent on the occupying force for their livelihood. they also travelled abroad freely for hajj, trade ect. and so were the catalyst for chinese nationalism in the 19th century that rebelled against the collapsing occupying manchu state because of their access to weapons, better education than the general population and access to external information and their positions in the government and their greater freedom of movement. their was various attempts by the hui to secure a posiiton of power both when the mongols collapsed and when the manchus did.. they made up the bulk of the warlords with the collapse of the manchu state, even forming some caliphates in the 19th century and being the vast majority of the warlords fighting with the japanese and the communists. they are a curious ethnogroup. they are historically urban peoples, traders and employees of the state and were employed by the nomads to maintain their rule in urban settings in many places. this caused the group to generally be very dispersed throughout china. Linxia is their current epicenter but historcally they had large populations in yunan, suchuan, guangdong, shanghai , beijing ect ect .. due to war and being targeted specifically over the centuries their population is much smaller than it was historically. the japanese had a particularly ruthless attitude towards them in eastern china as did the communists. they had a mix of chinese and nomads bladed tools and weapons and you can see images of hui wearing large belt knives like the mongols and manchus do. over time a some stypes of knives appeared that combined middle eastern, chinese and nomad traditions. these include the products of the bonan people another interesting very small hybrid group of similar origins specialising in making knives and swords the hui items have a distinct look and probably influenced chines items in general you can see the rivets have flowers or wheels spoke Patterns on them, this is something distinct to chinese weapons. the fullering is very much middle eastern, persian ect in style and the blades with have chinese mosaic in them and sometimes a middle eastern inspired cartouche . the Baldes are often very thick. the sheaths will be a mix of middle eastern and nomad in style many times with a pointed chape more as a persian or afghan knife not a blunt mongol tip . you can even see these middle eastern and central asian influences even on cantonese "butterfly" swords some times. riveted bone handles cartouches in the blades fullers doing uturns at the ricasso ect. these leaf shaped knives can be long too up to 60 centimeters. similar in size to the long mongol knives. or they can be tiny in size . ive also see examples with asymmetrical fullering like uzbek knives and caucascan knives sometimes have. these is also double edged dagger versions of these and long narrow versions like a tibetan dagger. some times they will have chinese writing on them , ive seem them also with arabic and manchu writing as well. anyway considering the dispersed population of the hui and the nonhomogeneous nature of their culture and the fact that they are traders buying and selling items and trading and ordering goods from other ethnic groups they trade with id say these knives were not recognized as distinctly their own but something that came out of their population in general. for example ive see quite a few marked as coming from yunan and Sichuan in collections or from hui in burma. but then their is others that have clear arsenal marks from armories in beijing ect. its a sort of hybrid knives for several different cultures.

30th March 2024, 06:01 PM	#26
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I was not that far off the mark.