Very Interesting Saif/Nimcha

S.Al-Anizi · 2nd February 2007, 02:28 PM

Hi,

I just got these pics from a friend who would like to sell this sword. I thought I would show you the pics, just for sharing though. I would also like to know what you think. I think that the blade is european, locally etched. The marks on the blade are the most interesting thing about it. There are some amharic words on it, which would mean an ethiopian provenance, but we never knew that these swords were found in ethiopia (I think)?! There is also a star of david sign on the forte, which would mean that this sword belonged to a jew, which would be reasonable as there were many jews in ethiopia and Yemen. This could also be an Ethiopian blade remounted in Yemeni fittings.

S.Al-Anizi · 2nd February 2007, 02:40 PM

A couple more:

Lew · 2nd February 2007, 05:48 PM

The blade seems to be from an Ethiopian saber it may not be original to the hilt? The scabbard seems to be Ethiopian made also?

Lew

David · 2nd February 2007, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.Al-Anizi

There is also a star of david sign on the forte, which would mean that this sword belonged to a jew, which would be reasonable as there were many jews in ethiopia and Yemen.

It doesn't necessarily follow that this sword was owned by a Jewish person simply because the Seal of Solomon appears on it, especially if the sword does indeed come from Ethiopia. This is a symbol that is embraced by far more than the Jewish faith. Attached are the Seal of Solomon metal from the Ethiopian government. I don't believe the hexagram has anything to do with Judism in this case, especially since there is a cross at it's center. Also here is a link that shows the 6-pointed star on the U.S.marine sabre. Again, i do not think there is a link to Judism in this case. The link isn't direct. Click Symbols and Icons and then click the 3rd gray box to the right of that for the image:
http://www.marines.com/page/usmc.jsp...hRedirect=true

RhysMichael · 2nd February 2007, 07:45 PM

I was under the impression that most of the saif with the ring on the hilt like this came from near Dar es Salaam or Zanzibar. So if this is from Ethiopia it would be an interesting find. I want to say I have seen similar markings on a gurade ( and Gurade is the amharic word for sword ) I will look and see if I can find it again.

Maybe Mark or Jim will chime in on this, in another place Mark stated this about ethiopian blades

Quote:

There has been extensive trading for centuries across the Red Sea between Ethiopia & Eritrea (and the various small kingdoms that preceeded them), and the Arabian peninsula. The highland tribes of Ethiopia (such as the dominant Amhara, the Tigrinia and the Gurage) and coastal tribes such as the Danakil, the Afar and the Issa, are in fact Semitic peoples, indicating close ties with Arabia. It is not unlikely that a blade could make its way to the southern peninsula, perhaps via the port of Djibouti which is directly opposite, there to be re-fitted.

Isnt amharic also spoken in Eritrea ?

And I have been told there are Jambiya with Jewish blades so it would not be out of the realm of posibilities for there to be a Jewish blade in a saif

Tim Simmons · 2nd February 2007, 08:38 PM

S.Al. Anizi, an interesting turn round in questions. The star/seal of Solomon is used by Christians as a symbol of right/justice and wisdom as far as I know. These two British military swords carry the symbol and I am sure there is absolutely nothing to do with Judaism. Solomon features in a great deal of Ethiopian art as the Ethiopians hold that Sheba hails from thier own land. I have an Ethiopia painting depicting Solomon and Sheba doing some sort of biblical thing.

Lew · 2nd February 2007, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhysMichael

And I have been told there are Jambiya with Jewish blades so it would not be out of the realm of posibilities for there to be a Jewish blade in a saif

RhysMichael

Can you be more specific. What are Jewish blades

The story that I have heard from my Yeman friends is that most of the better silver work seen on the higher quality jambiya and swords were done by Jewish silversmiths dating back to the last century 1800-1950. I have not heard of any Jewish bladesmiths making swords or daggers in that part of the world.

Lew

RhysMichael · 2nd February 2007, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

RhysMichael

Can you be more specific. What are Jewish blades

The story that I have heard from my Yeman friends is that most of the better silver work seen on the higher quality jambiya and swords were done by Jewish silversmiths dating back to the last century 1800-1950. I have not heard of any Jewish bladesmiths making swords or daggers in that part of the world.

Lew

Lew it took me a while to remember where I had read it and I interpreted to be the blade but maybe it was meant to speak of the silver work. The exact quote was from Manoucher

Quote:

Many antique Jambiyas or Jan' biyyah used to be made by Jewish smiths.These blades have better quality than the other ones. Please note that many Jambiyas do not have quality blades, but the workmanship which goes into the grip and sheath is excellent.

When I see smith I assume blade, it could be my bad

S.Al-Anizi · 2nd February 2007, 11:30 PM

Thanks for the replies, Louie, David, Rhys, and Tim. I must confess, I never really knew what the hexagram really stood for in any of the three faiths, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, which they all used throughout history. I must also admit, that I know very little about Ethiopian ethnicity, culture, and symbols, which are one of the most interesting in the world. Thanks for the link and pointing that out David, very interesting to see a hexagram with a cross in the middle of it.

This blade is most probably European, made for the Ethiopian army, but found itself in Zanzibar or Yemen. I have seen many hexagrams on european sabre blades, especially wilkinson's, but never really understood what they stood for

As to Yemeni jews, they probably only worked in silver, their work being referred to as "ibri" by arabs, which means hebrew, and regarded as the best.

Jeff D · 3rd February 2007, 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.Al-Anizi

found itself in Zanzibar or Yemen. I have seen many hexagrams on european sabre blades, especially Wilkinson's, but never really understood what they stood for

Hi Saqr,

The Wilkinson sword company started with the brass proof mark as a way of marking that their blades were superior. Other companies soon copied this practice. So Wilkinson started placing the hexagrams around their proof marks to differentiate themselves.That also was eventially copied.

Jeff

roanoa · 3rd February 2007, 01:42 AM

The six pointed star found on BRITISH blades has nothing to do with Judahism and Solomonic Dinasty. Has it been copied from the Star of David? Is it a coincidence? That I don't know. I do know, though, that it is quite simply the simbol used in Great Britain as a quality trade mark by the best blade makers. It indicated that the blade is of British origin. That's all. I'll try to get the inscription transated. Yes, Amharic is also spoken in Eritrea, just as Tigrinian is spoken in parts of Ethiopia. Both languages share the same alphabeth.

Zifir · 3rd February 2007, 08:40 AM

Similarly, the Seal of Solomon was widely used by the Ottomans. You find it in many places from buildings to weapons. The famous example which immediately comes to my mind is the famous flag of Barbarossa.

roanoa · 3rd February 2007, 07:00 PM

Now I am REALLY intrigued.... There are two sets of writing, as shown in the pictures. The clearer one does not make any sense to me (yet?), but the one that shows out of focus is easily readable and it says: GEORGE 5th, SWORD MAKER, PALL MALL, LONDON. Which is, OF COURSE, part of the inscription that Wilkinson wrote on his blades. The full inscription should read: Henry Wilkinson, sword maker for King George 5th, Pall Mall, London. So, is there more writing that doesn't show in the pictures? At any rate, considering all this and the general apperance of the sword, and the fact that the floral etching seems to be a poor imitation of the Wilkinson pattern, I'll venture to say that someone tried to emulate the appearance of a Wilkinson blade, down to the six pointed star. This makes, again in my opinion, a FANTASTIC find, if not for the intrinsic value of the sword, which may be not that great, for the historical value attached to it.

S.Al-Anizi · 3rd February 2007, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roanoa

Now I am REALLY intrigued.... There are two sets of writing, as shown in the pictures. The clearer one does not make any sense to me (yet?), but the one that shows out of focus is easily readable and it says: GEORGE 5th, SWORD MAKER, PALL MALL, LONDON. Which is, OF COURSE, part of the inscription that Wilkinson wrote on his blades. The full inscription should read: Henry Wilkinson, sword maker for King George 5th, Pall Mall, London. So, is there more writing that doesn't show in the pictures? At any rate, considering all this and the general apperance of the sword, and the fact that the floral etching seems to be a poor imitation of the Wilkinson pattern, I'll venture to say that someone tried to emulate the appearance of a Wilkinson blade, down to the six pointed star. This makes, again in my opinion, a FANTASTIC find, if not for the intrinsic value of the sword, which may be not that great, for the historical value attached to it.

Thanks for the info Ron, too interesting

2nd February 2007, 02:28 PM	#1
S.Al-Anizi Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Arabia Posts: 278	Very Interesting Saif/Nimcha Hi, I just got these pics from a friend who would like to sell this sword. I thought I would show you the pics, just for sharing though. I would also like to know what you think. I think that the blade is european, locally etched. The marks on the blade are the most interesting thing about it. There are some amharic words on it, which would mean an ethiopian provenance, but we never knew that these swords were found in ethiopia (I think)?! There is also a star of david sign on the forte, which would mean that this sword belonged to a jew, which would be reasonable as there were many jews in ethiopia and Yemen. This could also be an Ethiopian blade remounted in Yemeni fittings. Attached Images

2nd February 2007, 02:40 PM	#2
S.Al-Anizi Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Arabia Posts: 278	A couple more: Attached Images

2nd February 2007, 08:38 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	S.Al. Anizi, an interesting turn round in questions. The star/seal of Solomon is used by Christians as a symbol of right/justice and wisdom as far as I know. These two British military swords carry the symbol and I am sure there is absolutely nothing to do with Judaism. Solomon features in a great deal of Ethiopian art as the Ethiopians hold that Sheba hails from thier own land. I have an Ethiopia painting depicting Solomon and Sheba doing some sort of biblical thing. Last edited by Tim Simmons; 2nd February 2007 at 09:21 PM.

3rd February 2007, 08:40 AM	#12
Zifir Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Istanbul Posts: 228	Similarly, the Seal of Solomon was widely used by the Ottomans. You find it in many places from buildings to weapons. The famous example which immediately comes to my mind is the famous flag of Barbarossa. Attached Images

2nd February 2007, 05:48 PM	#3
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	The blade seems to be from an Ethiopian saber it may not be original to the hilt? The scabbard seems to be Ethiopian made also? Lew

2nd February 2007, 11:30 PM	#9
S.Al-Anizi Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Arabia Posts: 278	Thanks for the replies, Louie, David, Rhys, and Tim. I must confess, I never really knew what the hexagram really stood for in any of the three faiths, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, which they all used throughout history. I must also admit, that I know very little about Ethiopian ethnicity, culture, and symbols, which are one of the most interesting in the world. Thanks for the link and pointing that out David, very interesting to see a hexagram with a cross in the middle of it. This blade is most probably European, made for the Ethiopian army, but found itself in Zanzibar or Yemen. I have seen many hexagrams on european sabre blades, especially wilkinson's, but never really understood what they stood for As to Yemeni jews, they probably only worked in silver, their work being referred to as "ibri" by arabs, which means hebrew, and regarded as the best.

3rd February 2007, 01:42 AM	#11
roanoa Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 235	The six pointed star found on BRITISH blades has nothing to do with Judahism and Solomonic Dinasty. Has it been copied from the Star of David? Is it a coincidence? That I don't know. I do know, though, that it is quite simply the simbol used in Great Britain as a quality trade mark by the best blade makers. It indicated that the blade is of British origin. That's all. I'll try to get the inscription transated. Yes, Amharic is also spoken in Eritrea, just as Tigrinian is spoken in parts of Ethiopia. Both languages share the same alphabeth.

3rd February 2007, 07:00 PM	#13
roanoa Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 235	Now I am REALLY intrigued.... There are two sets of writing, as shown in the pictures. The clearer one does not make any sense to me (yet?), but the one that shows out of focus is easily readable and it says: GEORGE 5th, SWORD MAKER, PALL MALL, LONDON. Which is, OF COURSE, part of the inscription that Wilkinson wrote on his blades. The full inscription should read: Henry Wilkinson, sword maker for King George 5th, Pall Mall, London. So, is there more writing that doesn't show in the pictures? At any rate, considering all this and the general apperance of the sword, and the fact that the floral etching seems to be a poor imitation of the Wilkinson pattern, I'll venture to say that someone tried to emulate the appearance of a Wilkinson blade, down to the six pointed star. This makes, again in my opinion, a FANTASTIC find, if not for the intrinsic value of the sword, which may be not that great, for the historical value attached to it.