keris borneo

semar · 30th December 2009, 01:14 PM

I have receive this keris today the picteurs are for sharing comment is welkom

regards semar

Marcokeris · 30th December 2009, 01:25 PM

Great

BluErf · 30th December 2009, 01:37 PM

I've always wondered what a Borneo keris would look like. It's hard to imagine that this is what it looks like. Anyway, it is a young keris, and they can turn up in many unusual forms.

We have seen some Bornean sundang in Museums, but normal sized keris? Maybe more Bugis style than anything?

David · 30th December 2009, 03:46 PM

It looks like a mish-mash of styles thrown together. The hilt looks like new ivory, not particularly well carved and then colored to look old. Perhaps an old Javanese pendok thrown onto newly carved sheath. The blade is a bugis style. I too am having difficulty accepting this as a style of keris that is indigenous to Borneo.

BluErf · 30th December 2009, 03:57 PM

How about Non-Bugis trying to make Bugis-style blades?

David · 30th December 2009, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

How about Non-Bugis trying to make Bugis-style blades?

Possibly. That's why i said "Bugis-style" instead od just plain Bugis.

semar · 30th December 2009, 07:17 PM

oke thank you but ho can show a fuwe borneo keris for compering

regards semar

David · 30th December 2009, 07:54 PM

Semar, just about all the keris that i see from Kalimantan these days are new keris made mostly for the tourist market. The true antiques that i see from this area are mostly sundangs, not regular sized Indo-style keris. I see quite alot of new panjang style keris described as having Kalimantan origin. I have also seen the crudely painted sheaths with teeth ornaments described as originating in Borneo. These usually have fairly junky trade blades from Java or elsewhere. Frankly i doubt that any of these other than the actual antique sundang from the area have any true ethnographic bearing or application. I have never, for example, seen any old photographs showing someone in Borneo wearing one of these painted teeth decorated sheaths as a part of any traditional dress. I have seen no evidence that there was any particular traditional manufacture of keris from this area other than the sundang. If the standard Indonesian styles of keris were indeed used in this area traditionally i have a feeling that the origins of those keris most probably are from other areas of Indonesia. I don't think that we will find a traditional style that originates in Borneo.

semar · 30th December 2009, 09:10 PM

oke thank you David

regards semar

Maurice · 30th December 2009, 09:27 PM

Hi Hans,

In the north-east part of Borneo you mostly see the moro styled krisses. This because the moro's also settled at the coast there. But the natives there who had these, got it by trade or buy (or from victim?

)
In the south, in the Banjarmasin area, the types crossed you find on attached 2 photo's from the Leiden Museum (but here a lot of trade was going on).

All other kinds of kerisses found on Borneo (old ones) are imported by traders and travellers. You find Javanese, Buginese, Sumatran and other types in museum databases depicted as Borneo kerisses.
But they are no typical Borneo kerisses, because the nativs of Borneo traditional never had kerisses.
Old kerisses could be acquired in Borneo, but that is all! They were once long ago imported!

Rg,
Maurice

Henk · 30th December 2009, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I have also seen the crudely painted sheaths with teeth ornaments described as originating in Borneo. These usually have fairly junky trade blades from Java or elsewhere. Frankly i doubt that any of these other than the actual antique sundang from the area have any true ethnographic bearing or application. I have never, for example, seen any old photographs showing someone in Borneo wearing one of these painted teeth decorated sheaths as a part of any traditional dress.

David, these keris you are refering to are described to borneo indeed. But this kind of dress was original found on Papua New Guinea. I have an original one in my collection with paint made from natural materials and sometimes an original one shows up. But the most of these things showing up on ebay are newly made for those who travel with modern paint.

Naga Sasra · 31st December 2009, 12:32 AM

These crudely made keris mentioned by David with teeth and hair was originally discussed back in 2005 in the following thread:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=naga+sasra

Also both Banjarmasin, Kalimanten and pieces from Brunai can indeed be classified from Borneo, although the blades may have been from other places. It is said that the keris forging in Kalimanten quietly vanished in the beginning of the twentieth century.
While still made in South-East Kalimanten the blades had the characteristic's of a mixture of Javanese and Buginese styles.

David · 31st December 2009, 05:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Naga Sasra

Also both Banjarmasin, Kalimanten and pieces from Brunai can indeed be classified from Borneo, although the blades may have been from other places.

Thanks Eric, good point and certainly there is a particular style to dress from Banjarmasin. I am not aware of the origins of the blades in such dress though.
I do remember this old thread on the painted dress. Yours is certainly a nice older example and you rarely see them made with such integrity. I don't think we ever actually came to any conclusion on the ethnographic validity of such dress. I would love to see some old photographs showing these keris worn by indigenous people from the area.

Naga Sasra · 31st December 2009, 03:49 PM

David,
To the best of my recollected knowledge, you are absolutely right, we never did come to any conclution on the ethnographic validity if the painted dresses with teeth and hair, and I would also welcome any photographic evidence of these pieces actually being used by the indigenous people from the area.

Perhaps our friends from the Netherlands can assist?

Also as we were touching on the Banjarmasin pieces, please let me direct your attention to yet another old thread:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=naga+sasra

I thought this thread would be of interest to all.

David · 31st December 2009, 05:36 PM

Eric, thanks for being the archivist with these past links and this last one is also very good and appropriate to our discussion. It does, however, bring up a big pet peeve of mine. Please, PLEASE, when you have photos of examples, PLEASE....upload them to THIS site. All the links in this thread no longer exist so we are not able to see the blades of these Banjarmasin keris, only the hilts that got posted on the actual forum. I guess kampungnet is no more. Photos also get removed after time from servers like photobucket or whatever you use. Our archives can be a vital resource for future resource, but we have to ensure that the images connected to these discussions remain accessible. Hopeful, like diamonds, the Warung is forever.

Sajen · 31st December 2009, 07:26 PM

I remember this thread where some keris shown which you can attribute Banjarmasin:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=borneo+keris

And also this one:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7840

A. G. Maisey · 1st January 2010, 06:10 AM

I've been out of touch over the Christmas New Year break, and I don't really feel inclined to read back through all the linked threads to see if what I will now say has already been said --- its quicker and easier for me to write.Please forgive me if this is repetition.

The traditional wisdom in respect of Borneo keris --- or Kalimantan, the island is Borneo, the Indonesian province Kalimantan is situated on Borneo --- is that the keris was not indigenous to Borneo. Any keris found on Borneo were brought there by settlers from other parts of Indonesia and Malaysia. When the original dress needed to be replaced the local Borneo craftsman would attempt to copy the original dress, but since these men were not skilled in the art of the particular variations of wrongko, their efforts were most often a slightly warped interpretation of the original.

Metal hilts and also metal scabbards were popular and were often set with rose cut diamonds (intan), rose cut rock crystal (yakut) or other semi-precious gemstones.

It is normal to find matings of blades from one origin with dress that is of a style originating in a different location.

30th December 2009, 01:14 PM	#1
semar Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 272	keris borneo I have receive this keris today the picteurs are for sharing comment is welkom regards semar Attached Images

30th December 2009, 09:27 PM	#10
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,346	Hi Hans, In the north-east part of Borneo you mostly see the moro styled krisses. This because the moro's also settled at the coast there. But the natives there who had these, got it by trade or buy (or from victim? ) In the south, in the Banjarmasin area, the types crossed you find on attached 2 photo's from the Leiden Museum (but here a lot of trade was going on). All other kinds of kerisses found on Borneo (old ones) are imported by traders and travellers. You find Javanese, Buginese, Sumatran and other types in museum databases depicted as Borneo kerisses. But they are no typical Borneo kerisses, because the nativs of Borneo traditional never had kerisses. Old kerisses could be acquired in Borneo, but that is all! They were once long ago imported! Rg, Maurice Attached Images

31st December 2009, 03:49 PM	#14
Naga Sasra Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Boca Raton, Florida, USA Posts: 108	Borneo David, To the best of my recollected knowledge, you are absolutely right, we never did come to any conclution on the ethnographic validity if the painted dresses with teeth and hair, and I would also welcome any photographic evidence of these pieces actually being used by the indigenous people from the area. Perhaps our friends from the Netherlands can assist? Also as we were touching on the Banjarmasin pieces, please let me direct your attention to yet another old thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=naga+sasra I thought this thread would be of interest to all.

30th December 2009, 01:25 PM	#2
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	Great

30th December 2009, 01:37 PM	#3
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	I've always wondered what a Borneo keris would look like. It's hard to imagine that this is what it looks like. Anyway, it is a young keris, and they can turn up in many unusual forms. We have seen some Bornean sundang in Museums, but normal sized keris? Maybe more Bugis style than anything?

30th December 2009, 03:46 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,125	It looks like a mish-mash of styles thrown together. The hilt looks like new ivory, not particularly well carved and then colored to look old. Perhaps an old Javanese pendok thrown onto newly carved sheath. The blade is a bugis style. I too am having difficulty accepting this as a style of keris that is indigenous to Borneo.

30th December 2009, 03:57 PM	#5
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	How about Non-Bugis trying to make Bugis-style blades?

30th December 2009, 07:17 PM	#7
semar Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 272	oke thank you but ho can show a fuwe borneo keris for compering regards semar

30th December 2009, 07:54 PM	#8
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,125	Semar, just about all the keris that i see from Kalimantan these days are new keris made mostly for the tourist market. The true antiques that i see from this area are mostly sundangs, not regular sized Indo-style keris. I see quite alot of new panjang style keris described as having Kalimantan origin. I have also seen the crudely painted sheaths with teeth ornaments described as originating in Borneo. These usually have fairly junky trade blades from Java or elsewhere. Frankly i doubt that any of these other than the actual antique sundang from the area have any true ethnographic bearing or application. I have never, for example, seen any old photographs showing someone in Borneo wearing one of these painted teeth decorated sheaths as a part of any traditional dress. I have seen no evidence that there was any particular traditional manufacture of keris from this area other than the sundang. If the standard Indonesian styles of keris were indeed used in this area traditionally i have a feeling that the origins of those keris most probably are from other areas of Indonesia. I don't think that we will find a traditional style that originates in Borneo.

30th December 2009, 09:10 PM	#9
semar Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 272	oke thank you David regards semar

31st December 2009, 12:32 AM	#12
Naga Sasra Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Boca Raton, Florida, USA Posts: 108	These crudely made keris mentioned by David with teeth and hair was originally discussed back in 2005 in the following thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=naga+sasra Also both Banjarmasin, Kalimanten and pieces from Brunai can indeed be classified from Borneo, although the blades may have been from other places. It is said that the keris forging in Kalimanten quietly vanished in the beginning of the twentieth century. While still made in South-East Kalimanten the blades had the characteristic's of a mixture of Javanese and Buginese styles.

31st December 2009, 05:36 PM	#15
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,125	Eric, thanks for being the archivist with these past links and this last one is also very good and appropriate to our discussion. It does, however, bring up a big pet peeve of mine. Please, PLEASE, when you have photos of examples, PLEASE....upload them to THIS site. All the links in this thread no longer exist so we are not able to see the blades of these Banjarmasin keris, only the hilts that got posted on the actual forum. I guess kampungnet is no more. Photos also get removed after time from servers like photobucket or whatever you use. Our archives can be a vital resource for future resource, but we have to ensure that the images connected to these discussions remain accessible. Hopeful, like diamonds, the Warung is forever.

31st December 2009, 07:26 PM	#16
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	I remember this thread where some keris shown which you can attribute Banjarmasin: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=borneo+keris And also this one: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7840

1st January 2010, 06:10 AM	#17
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	I've been out of touch over the Christmas New Year break, and I don't really feel inclined to read back through all the linked threads to see if what I will now say has already been said --- its quicker and easier for me to write.Please forgive me if this is repetition. The traditional wisdom in respect of Borneo keris --- or Kalimantan, the island is Borneo, the Indonesian province Kalimantan is situated on Borneo --- is that the keris was not indigenous to Borneo. Any keris found on Borneo were brought there by settlers from other parts of Indonesia and Malaysia. When the original dress needed to be replaced the local Borneo craftsman would attempt to copy the original dress, but since these men were not skilled in the art of the particular variations of wrongko, their efforts were most often a slightly warped interpretation of the original. Metal hilts and also metal scabbards were popular and were often set with rose cut diamonds (intan), rose cut rock crystal (yakut) or other semi-precious gemstones. It is normal to find matings of blades from one origin with dress that is of a style originating in a different location.