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#1 |
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Hi
I found this piece recently, and would like to ask if there are any Native American weapons/material specialists on the forum who can help out with identification etc ? Looking over the internet, it seems these sort of objects were used as a type of warrior's armour, also ornamentation. (There was a different type of a similar construction worn by women). Apparently they have continued to be made into modern times ? - but this one seems to have some age. Anyway, any information would be helpful, and thanks in advance. |
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#2 |
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YOU SEEM TO HAVE DONE MOST OF THE RESEARCH THE ONLY THING I CAN ADD IS YOU CAN JUDGE THE AGE MOSTLY BY THE CONDITION AND WEAR ON THE LEATHER. THIS SHOULD GIVE YOU SOME IDEA IF THE ITEM WAS ACTUALLY WORN AND USED AND A CLUE AS TO ITS AGE. THESE ARE STILL WORN AS PART OF THE REGALIA DURING POWWOWS AND DANCE CONTESTS. SOMETIMES WHEN A OLD PERSON DIES OR A YOUNG PERSON GROWS UP THESE COME ON THE MARKET. THEY ARE ALSO MADE FOR SALE TOO.
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#3 |
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Looks super to me. Clearly not recent. The only reference I have is that they are jewelry. The bone is too fine to be effective as armour. Very nice.
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#4 |
Arms Historian
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While I am far from being a specialist on American Indian material culture, what I have learned is that these type accoutrements were more of a 'medicine' or talismanic sort of item. These are fashioned from what are termed 'hair pipes' in thier parlance, and in earlier times were actually made of dentalium (mollusk shells), most of these heavily traded from Northwest Indian tribes. Many of the beads and wampum shells used in other forms of accoutement came from trade through the Northeast, though some shells from this source were also used for 'hair pipes'.
By about the 1860s and especially during the Reservation Period, these hair pipes were being fashioned from bone, and actually while much was likely from buffalo, good volume began to come from livestock firms in Chicago and New York using cattle legbones. There was considerable demand for these and varying versions of these breastplates were made, not just by tribal peculiarity but personal adaption. Apparantly by WWI demand for these had waned (according to John C. Ewers, "Hair Pipes in Plains Indian Adornment", Smithsonian Bulletin 164, 1957, Anthropological Papers #50, pp.29-85). It seems that these type breastplates became more of a traditional costume item used ceremonially later in the 20th century and are of course produced still commercially, while many are authentically created and used in Native American ceremony today. While it does not seem that these would have been terribly effective in most combat instances, especially with the advent of firearms, it must be remembered that these were characteristically talismanic much in the way of the 'war shirts' which were often decorated with honors and charm type symbols. Very nice example, and it is fantastic to see interest in the extremely important topic of Native American weaponry and material culture, which deserves far more attention here. * Barry who can ever forget the great photo of you in the war bonnet!!~! ![]() |
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#5 |
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Very nice breast plate. And it does seem to have some age to it. As stated, these are being made now, and some are "patinated", to look old. They were magically expected to deflect enemy weapons. In the same way, that Japanese Senninbari (One Thousand Stitch Belts) were believed to stop bullets.
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#6 |
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soliloquy cont.
Discovered more information which somewhat counters my earlier comments concerning the hair pipe breastplate being a medicine or talismanic item. Apparantly the design of these derives from a rod type armor fashioned of wood dowels sewn together used in the Northeast culture area. The use of bones, hollowed shells and rolled copper have quite early history for adornment. The first use of the term 'hair pipe' c. 1767 in the Ohio Valley referring to tubular beads traded from 'wampum' trade business in New Jersey. These beads were from West Indian conches and arrived in New York often as ships ballast. These were traded to tribes in the upper Missouri River regions. According to the author, David E. Jones, "Native North American Armor, Shields and Fortifications" , the Comanches created the hair pipe breastplate around 1854, and by the early 1870s the fashion was seen widely with the Plains tribes. In this outstanding reference, the author notes that these breastplates were almost universally linked to male warriors along with high status and wealth, rather than the talismanic imbuement I earlier presumed. An interesting perspective that is shown by the author, further defeating the idea of these intended as armor, besides being fragile and unlikely to provide any useful protection, is the suggestion that Plains warriors were entirely ready to die in battle. Such precautions would have been contrary to the ideals and philosophy of most of these warriors, particularly those of the many warrior societies. This is well shown in the Lakota adage used by Sitting Bull, "..today is a good day to die". This seems quite contrary to the note I made earlier to the 'war shirts' which were indeed intended as talismanically imbued to protect the wearer from bullets. It would seem that tribally there were factions of the warrior groups quite separated philosophically with those seeking protection and those of the warrior societies who were quite willing to accept death in battle. It would seem that notations of these breastplates being worn in battle would have more to do with the personal pride of the warrior going into battle knowing well it may be his last, than of protective armor. These of course would seem to in certain cases become traditional regalia for warriors of these warrior societies. A 1916 study in the Teton-Dakota division however revealed little evidence of armor as a symbol, fetish or weapon. |
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#7 |
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Very nice piece. I have seen the older and newer forms of this. I even knew someone in the Native American community here that made them out of cane.
For the most part, they were used by Plains tribes, especially the Sioux groups. Side note: I have a choker made of this stuff hand made and gifted to me from a Native American full blood friend years ago. |
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#8 |
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Many thanks to those who have input on this item, especially to Jim for his comprehensive and detailed response. Very useful information.
On the subject of Native American Indians and for anyone with an interest - I read in the newspaper yesterday that the National Portrait Gallery, London has a new exhibition of paintings of Native Americans, by George Catlin, last shown in London in the 1840s... |
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#9 |
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This topic came up before. These are definitely not armor; they're big pieces of bead work. Look and see if there are any flat places on the bone beads. That is one of the signs my grandmother told me to always look for, although these days they probably fake that as well.
Just because you are prepared to die in battle, doesn't mean you won't try to avoid it. We did carry shields after all. |
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#10 | |
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Hi Aiontay, Actually this topic certainly has come up, but I cannot recall how long it has been. Its always great to see the subject of American Indian weaponry come up as it is one I find fascinating and enjoy learning more about. I do feel a bit awkward though trying to describe what is often perceived about the perspective held on certain matters within another culture, when clearly I am only an observer, and obviously do not have first hand access. This is why I often write in depth (and thank you so much Colin for reading my posts and for the personal acknowledgement, very much appreciated), so I can try to show various aspects of the topic. I think in my post #6 I did note the fact that these breastplates were mostly decorative and evolved from beadwork, describing trade 'hair pipes' from New York into the upper Missouri River regions, which were actually 'beads' fashioned from shells. I also tried to clarify my earlier note regarding the ethos of the Plains warriors in their warrior societies as described by author David E. Jones ("Native North American Armor, Shields and Fortifications", 2004, p.45). In his description Jones notes the death haunted warrior songs of these groups, and asks, "...how could a warrior sing 'I am the one who wishes to die' and strap on a six ply rawhide vest, war shirt and helmet?". He goes on to cite references from early writer Robert H. Lowie ("Anthropological Papers of the American Museum of Natural History", Vol. 11, part 11, p.846, 'The Kiowa Warrior',1916) who notes the chant of some Kiowa warriors, "..now I am gone. I am going to leave you. I will not run anymore". The Crow warriors of the Fox Society sang, "...listen you foxes, I want to die" (Lowie, op. cit. 1913, p.158, Vol. 11, "Crow Military Societies"). In my subsequent post I pointed out that despite these apparant death oriented ethos among warriors of these societies, clearly there was a much larger character of self preservation among tribal warriors in general. Lowie apparantly also noted that despite the contrary attitude of the warrior society members they paradoxically honored the custom that the loss of a single man in battle negated any cause for celebration at its end regardless of outcome. In reviewing these references and the amazing detail included by these anthropologists, the most important factor I have realized is the absolute brilliance of the warriors of these tribes, ever expanding my admiration not only of them, but of Native American tribes overall and thier culture. All best wishes, Jim |
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#11 |
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THESE WERE NOT A COMMON PART OF DRESS OWNED OR WORN BY ALL TRIBE MEMBERS. THEY SHOWED WEALTH AND POSITION OF PEOPLE IN THE TRIBE AND WERE EARNED BY THOSE WHO EXCELLED. TRIBAL LIFE DID NOT REWARD THOSE WHO DID NOT DO ANYTHING GOOD FOR THE TRIBE AND THE MORE VALUABLE YOU WERE TO THE TRIBE THE MORE HONOR AND RESPECT YOU RECEIVED. ALONG WITH THAT POSITION CAME THE WEALTH IN THE FORM OF THINGS LIKE THESE BREASTPLATES.
TODAY THEY ARE WORN BY THOSE ABLE TO AFFORD THEM TO POWWOWS AND CEREMONIES. I MADE THE MISTAKE OF ASKING AN OSSAGE AT A CEREMONIE IF THE COSTUMES BEING WORN WERE THE ORIGINAL OSAGE TRADITIONAL DRESS OR IF SOME THINGS HAD BEEN INCORPORATED FROM OTHER TRIBES. I WAS TOLD IN NO UNCERTIAN TERMS THAT THESE WERE NOT COSTUMES BUT THE UNIFORMS OF THE WARRIORS OF THE TRIBE AND I COULD CALL THEM REGALIA BUT NOT COSTUMES. END OF DISCUSSION AND I STILL HAD MY HAIR ![]() I STILL WONDER IF THE REGALIA HAS STAYED TRUE TO THE TRIBES ORIGINAL FORMS OR IF IT HAS BEEN CHANGED OVER THE YEARS. AT THE POWOWS WHERE FANCY DANCE REGALIA ARE USED. OFTEN THE DANCER WITH THE COOLEST COSTUME HAS THE EDGE. SO I CAN SEE THAT AS A POSSIBLE INFLUENCE TO ADD SOMETHING IMPRESSIVE FROM ANOTHER TRIBE TO YOUR REGALIA. ANOTHER POSSIBLE INFLUENCE WERE THE EARLY WILD WEST SHOWS UNDOUBTABLE BUFFALOW BILL ADDED THINGS TO TRADITIONAL COSTUMES TO MAKE THEM LOOK MORE SAVAGE OR IMPRESSIVE FOR THE SHOW. MANY PICTURES AND POSTERS FROM THESE SHOWS SHAPED THE IMAGE OF THE NATIVE AMERICAN TRIBES AND HAD NO MORE ACCURACY IN THEIR PORTRAYEL THAN HOLLYWOOD DID. HERE ARE A FEW PICTURES OF THIS SORT OF BREASTPLATE BEING WORN. 1 TWO PICTURES ARE SOUIX TRIBE 2. PICTURE PONCA CHIEF 3. COMANCHIE WARRIOR 4. SEVERAL SOUIX WARRIORS TAKEN IN 1880 5. UTE TRIBE TAKEN IN 1800S 6. DON'T KNOW THE TRIBE OR DATE TAKEN. |
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#12 |
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Barry I can tell you this much - at today's powwows the Cherokee take on regalia based on Plains garb because they no longer have much of their own anymore.
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#13 |
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ITS TRUE THAT MUCH HAS BEEN LOST TO THE TRIBES ESPECIALLY BY TRIBES WHO LOST EVERYTHING AND WERE MOVED FAR FROM THEIR ANCESTRAL LANDS. THIS BEING THE CASE IT IS NO WONDER TRADITIONAL DRESS WOULD BE LOST. I SUSPECT SOME COULD BE LOOKED UP IN OLD MUSEUM COLLECTIONS AND DRAWINGS BUT USUALY A FORIGNER WILL ONLY NOTE WHAT APPEALS TO HIM TO REPRODUCE OR AQUIRE FOR A COLLECTION. SO WHAT THE TRIBE FOUND IMPORTANT MAY BE OVERLOOKED OR HIDDEN BY THE TRIBE AND LOST FROM SUCH COLLECTIONS.
NATIVE AMERICANS FOUGHT FOR THE SAME REASONS AS ALL TRIBAL SOCIETYS AND WENT TO WAR TO WIN AND PROTECT THEIR FAMILY,TRIBE ,REPUTATION AND HUNTING GROUNDS, NOT TO DIE. IF A BATTLE WAS LOST THE DEFEATED ONES TRYED TO GET BACK AND PROTECT THEIR FAMILYS AND HOMES. THE TRIBE MIGHT HAVE TO LEAVE QUICKLY AND LOSE REPUTATION, POSSESIONS AND PART OF THEIR VALUABLE HUNTING GROUNDS. BUT WOULD LIVE TO GROW STRONGER TO TRY AND GET THESE THINGS BACK IN FUTURE. THE CHANTS ABOUT DEATH WERE TO PREPARE THEM SO THEY WOULD NOT BE AFRAID AND DISGRACE THEIR TRIBE OR THEMSELVES BY PUTTING UP A POOR FIGHT OR NONE AT ALL. THE DEFEATED ALWAYS TALKED OF HOW FEIRCE THE WARRIORS OF THE OTHER TRIBE WERE THUS BUILDING THAT TRIBES REPUTATION. THEY STILL CONSIDERED THEMSELVES WARRIORS AND PROMISED TO BECOME STRONGER AND MORE FEIRCE AND TO DO BETTER IN FUTURE. WITH SOME TRIBES THEIR REPUTATION ALONE WAS ENOUGH FOR LESSER TRIBES TO MOVE AND NOT FIGHT WHEN THEY CAME INTO THEIR TERRITORY. ANOTHER EXAMPLE. THE VIKINGS WITH THEIR PRAYERS TO ODIN THAT THEY DIE HONORABLY IN BATTLE AND GO TO VALHALLA WAS A WAY TO BANISH FEAR NOT A PRAYER FOR DEATH. THEY TOO WANTED TO RETURN TO THE HARD LAND WHERE THEY LIVED WITH LOOT TO TAKE CARE OF AND CONTINUE TO PROTECT THEIR TRIBE AND FAMILY. IN ALL TIMES ALL RACES OF WARRIORS HAVE PREPARED THEIR MINDS WHEN GOING INTO HARMS WAY. NONE GOES TO DIE BUT TO WIN. THEY BELEAVED IF ONE DOES DIE IT IS BETTER TO DIE FIGHTING AND WITH HONOR AND PERHAPS GO TO VALHALLA THAN TO DIE AFRAID. |
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#14 |
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It is a nice piece, as others have said.
The one note I'd add is one of caution. These items are often worn by the dancers at modern pow-wows, and I've seen all the pieces needed to make a modern one for sale around the dances. This has a legitimate use, in that dancers need to repair their gear or get the materials to enhance their costumes. Unfortunately, it would be fairly easy for someone to use these things to try to fake an antique. Considering how commonly available the components are, and considering how popular Indian antiques are, I would be very careful about aging any of these pieces from photographs. Not that I'm suspicious of this one per se, but I'm not sure it can be authenticated without handling it. Best, F |
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#15 |
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Interesting views into collectible and commercial aspects. For me, as always, I enjoy learning more on the anthropological and historical perspectives. I very much welcomed the opportunity to view this example and learn more on this remarkable culture, which gratefully continues to gail more well deserved attention and respect.
Thank you Colin for posting this! |
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#16 |
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Neat item - this link might be of interest since you can download a very high resolution photo showing one of these being worn.
![]() http://www.loc.gov/pictures/item/98509250/ |
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#17 |
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Jim, I wouldn’t completely disagree, it is just that I think experts frequently overly complicate things, particularly when dealing with “exotic” tribal stuff. After all, the Japanese have plenty “today is a good day to die” sentiment in their culture, but anyone with enough money went in to battle with all the armor they could get. I suspect the culture of European knights had plenty of that sentiment as well, but that didn’t mean they took off their armor either. Remember the point of the battle, for all but the most suicidal, is to defeat the enemy which you do by killing more of them than they kill of you. I may be perfectly willing to die, but I’m going to do it in such a way as to take as many of them with me as possible, so wearing a multi-layer leather shirt and saying I don’t care if I die are not necessarily contradictory things. I read an account of a couple Crow warriors who had vowed to die in battle; they did, but they did so in such a way that allowed the rest of the Crows to overrun their enemies’ position, thereby winning the fight. I’d have to go back and check, but I believe some of the first person accounts of Indians at Little Big Horn have some of that “good day to die” rhetoric, but it wasn’t the Indians that died that day.
Battera, here in Oklahoma that is pretty much the rap on the Cherokees, but I’ll have to tell you it actually is rather unfair. I can assure you that I have been in plenty of Indian gatherings, but the only ones I’ve been in where everybody was speaking the native language were over in Cherokee country. I was at a stomp dance at Rocky Ford a couple of summers ago that was pretty Cherokee. Modern day powwows aren’t exactly the best place to go for tribally specific culture anyway. |
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#18 |
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#19 |
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Aiontay, actually I think we are on pretty much the same page, and the discussion on whether these breastplates were intended as defensive armor or ceremonial certainly has some relevance to our more philosophical review of the warrior ethos of these cultures.
Naturally what you say makes perfect sense, and while these warriors have reached a temporal state of resolution as far as thier own mortality, it does stand to reason that they would seek to last as long as possible to achieve thier purposes. It is known than in cases in the Sudan, warriors would bind themselves tightly with fabric to longer resist collapse after multiple bullet hits. There are of course many analogies describing these kinds of methods and practices in combat circumstances. I dont think anyone goes into battle intent on death, but in actual situations psychological effects often result in almost surreal perceptions of the actual nature of events taking place. I think one of the best accounts of these kinds of matters is "The Face of Battle" by the late Professor John Keegan. In actuality, few ever know what they will do or how they will react when extremely dramatic things take place, but these warriors typically were quite mentally prepared to function effectively to accomplish goals, and to do so meant to preserve themselves to the fullest extent to do so. To simply die in battle without regard would be entirely senseless and accomplish nothing. I agree about the Cherokee, and I have been to many of the locations in North Carolina, Tennessee and Oklahoma. They deeply cherish and revere thier heritage, and do not take preserving it lightly. My brother in law is of Cherokee and Comanche heritage. In my travels I have been fortunate to visit many American Indian heritage centers of many tribes and there is a profound difference between the 'tourist' trinkets in gift shops and the material in museums and observances of traditional ceremony and events. One of the most moving experiences I have had was in a visit through the Black Hills, and to Wounded Knee, something I will never forget. The heritage center there is something I wish every American could experience. |
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#20 |
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NOTE IN THE PICTURE OF THE KIOWA GATHERING THESE WERE TRULY THEIR UNIFORMS AS THEY HAVE THEIR MEDALS AND AT LEAST ONE APPEARS TO HAVE BEEN IN THE 101 AIRBORNE JUDGING FROM THE PATCH. IT LOOKS LIKE A LOT OF LANCES I WONDER WHAT THE CEREMONIE OR DANCE WAS. SOME ARE NOT DANCES BUT PRAYERS FROM WHAT I WAS TOLD IT DEPENDS ON IF IT GOES CLOCKWISE OR COUNTER CLOCKWISE. I WILL STOP BEFORE I STEP IN IT DUE TO MY IGNORANCE.
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#21 |
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It is the Kiowa Black Leggings; the more accurate translation would be Black Legs. They are one of the old Soldier Societies that was revived after WWII as a veterans organization, hence the modern military insignia. However, the other items are part of their “uniform” which is depicted in 19th Century ledger art. The red cape comes from an incident in which a society member rode through a line of Mexican soldiers and killed their commander who was wearing a red cape. They are also one of those societies that took a vow to stake themselves out to cover the retreat of others, hence the lances, but I can’t recall of any accounts of that actually happening. I suspect once we got horses that became rather obsolete. It was probably too easy to just ride by the guy who had pinned himself to the ground.
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#22 | |
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By the way, I am part Cherokee (as well as Filipino and Scots-Irish). I agree that powwows are not the place to experience pure tribal cultures, especially since they are "Pan-Indian". |
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