Chinese sword for comments

Nagawarrior · 1st June 2006, 02:10 AM

I watched this sword on ebay recently and wanted it. I looks like an authenic chinese sword form the late 19th century, but.....a little worried about the pieces out of China in general. I saw a very similar sword at a nearby sword shop. It had the thickest damascus blade I have ever seen on a sword. Much like the one in this auction. The store owner wanted quite a bit more for it too. I would like to add a Chinese sword to my collection, I don't have one yet, and one like this looks to be affordable. What do you guys think?
Stephen*

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEDW%3AIT&rd=1

Lew · 1st June 2006, 02:51 AM

I would stay away from any sword coming out of Hong Kong.

Lew

Ferguson · 1st June 2006, 02:59 AM

I know nothing about Chinese swords. But I do know Ebay. The private bidders, and private auctions in his feedback raise a red flag to me. Good luck sir.

Steve

Yu-Ming Chang · 1st June 2006, 03:10 AM

Actually, this piece looks real to me. Most of the fittings (i.e. suspension bar, chape, etc) are new reproductions and poor ones at that. The guard and pommel look original (or at least old). However, the blade itself shows an higher carbon insert edge and is made of pattern welded steel with lots of slag inclusions evident in the pictures that is typical of late Qing work. (I have some thoughts about this dealer which I can share via PM, if anyone cares). I've some similar pieces in the past which, when etched had some very pretty patterns. This particular piece is pretty broken down and probably has seen a lot of abuse in it's day.

The questions is whether it was meant for use as opposed to many made for street performance or training by civilian martial artists. I have a few examples of dao that were pattern welded with insert edge AND differentially hardened with spines only a 1.5 mm thick at the forte. These according to Mr. Tom were pieces intended for performance. This piece in question looks pretty beefy, but given the amount of patina sanded off.....

Rick · 1st June 2006, 03:14 AM

Stephen ,
If you know nothing about Chinese swords then spend your first dollars on a book or two on the subject .

With every popular Chinese martial arts movie comes a dozen more sellers of "Antique Chinese Swords" which BTW are illegal to export from China .

If you must have a Chinese sword do not buy it from China ; instead use a reputable dealer from a country outside of China .

fearn · 1st June 2006, 05:45 AM

I've got a wushu-type modern jian and a couple of more upscale ones. My advice, based on the experience of buying those blades, is that it's a lot more fun to go to a shop and try out all the blades, and find one that fits you and feels good. I bought my favorite that way, and my two least favorite were bought because they were good deals.

Obviously, this isn't the right advice for someone who's collecting a genuine antique piece. On the other hand, it's a heck of a lot more fun, and you know that you'll enjoy what you buy, no matter what the price is.

F

IainN · 1st June 2006, 02:38 PM

That seller had a number of interesting pieces up. As mentioned all the scabbards were new, most of the hilts, and some of the guards were also new. Only one short jian actually looked like an okay piece to me with an original, or at least old, hilting job. The blade on this dao however looked decent but I dislike how all the pieces were finished. To many red flags to be out the money.

What concerned me was the other fakes the seller had listed. Also as mentioned there is the legal issue, the seller didn't mention if he had the proper papers and export license. I'm certainly not willing to paypal $3-400 to HK and then have customs nab it.

Yu-Ming Chang · 1st June 2006, 09:56 PM

Does anyone know what the standards/regulations are for antiques being shipped out of Hong Kong? I assuming that enforcement policies are somewhat different?

VANDOO · 2nd June 2006, 01:31 AM

THINGS USED TO BE DIFFERENT BEFORE HONG KONG PASSED BACK INTO CHINESE HANDS BUT I ASSUME THE SAME LAWS NOW APPLY AS IT IS ONE COUNTRY. WHEN CHINA FIRST STARTED TO OPEN HER DOORS THERE WERE WHAT THEY CALLED (FRIENDSHIP STORES, IF I REMEMBER CORECTLY) THEY ACTUALLY SOLD SOME NICE AUTHENTIC ANTIQUES. THEY WERE THE ONLY PLACES WHERE A FORIGNER COULD BUY ANYTHING AS THEY DIDN'T ALLOW FORIGNERS TO HAVE CHINESE MONEY OR SPEND THEIR CURRENCY. I WISH I HAD BOUGHT SOME OF THE SWORDS THEN AS I HAVEN'T SEEN ANYTHING OF THAT QUALITY OFFERED SINCE.

I HAVE SEVERAL OF THE BRONZE REPLICA WEAPONS WITH THE RED WAX SEAL FOR EXPORT BUT THAT DOSEN'T PREFORM THE MIRICLE OF MAKING THEM AN AUTHENTIC ANTIQUE BRONZE AGE SWORD. I THINK MOST OF THE GOOD PATINATED EXAMPLES WERE MADE PRE WW2 AND THEN SET IN SHOPS ALL OVER CHINA AFTER THE COMMUNIST REVOLUTION AND THEN HAD A MARKET AGAIN WHEN CHINA FINNALY OPENED HER DOORS AGAIN.

IT IS INTERESTING THAT PRE COMMUNIST CHINA HONORED ITS PAST AND COMMUNIST CHINA SAID THE PAST AND ALL OLD THINGS WERE DEAD AND NOT IMPORTANT AND THE OLD WAYS SHOULD BE FORGOTTEN. THERE NOW SEEMS TO BE A CHANGE TO ALLOW THEM TO BE PROUD SELECTIVLY OF THEIR HISTORY AND TO PASS LAWS TO KEEP ANYTHING OLD FROM BEING SOLD OUTSIDE THE COUNTRY. UNFORTUNATELY FOR THE PEOPLE MANY ITEMS ARE COMMON AND OF NO VALUE LOCALLY AND COULD BE SOLD OUTSIDE CHINA IF IT WERE LEGAL. THESE ARE JUST MY OBSERVATIONS AND IT IS A LOT MORE COMPLICATED THAN THESE THOUGHTS.

Nagawarrior · 2nd June 2006, 02:01 AM

Thanks to all for your replies. I've learned a lot. Yes Rick, I should invest in a book or two about Chinese weapons. I don't intend to buy more than one or two. If I spend money on books it kills my limited budget. But then I my lose by purchasing a bad piece. Its a catch 22 I guess. I'll also stay away from auctions located in China. I don't want to break the law or take any chances.
The sword the the local sword shop has, is exactly like the one in the auction. So if people responded well to the one in the auction I would go back and purchase it. Now I think he has one of the Newly created Chinese swords at his shop. I asked him about the cheap looking mounts verses the rather good blade. His answer was that they didn't spend much on the mounts for mass issue fighting weapons in time of war. I asked if I could take a picture and he got offended that I wasn't taking his word about the antiquity of the sword. I've learned through experience not to trust any dealer. A quote from one well known dealer, "all dealers B.S. from time to time." I've had tails spun for me, let me tell you. I get that deer in the headlight look in my eyes and they know they got me. I hear what I want to hear I guess. Then regret it later after I've had time to think.
So I guess this shows one how important it is to educate yourself and only trust your own knowledge. It takes so many years to develop, and so many mistakes. I've learned much since my first collecting experiences. Thanks to all here at the forum for accelerating the learning process.

Rick · 2nd June 2006, 02:15 AM

I've learned through experience not to trust any dealer. A quote from one well known dealer, "all dealers B.S. from time to time."

Not all Naga , not all ....

Nagawarrior · 2nd June 2006, 02:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I've learned through experience not to trust any dealer. A quote from one well known dealer, "all dealers B.S. from time to time."

Not all Naga , not all ....

Your are right Rick. I can name at least one right now, **** ****** . I've dealt with him for many years. A more honest and knowledgable dealer is hard to find. I highly recommend a look at his latest catalog. Thanks for the encouragement Rick.

1st June 2006, 02:10 AM	#1
Nagawarrior Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Inland Empire, Southern California USA Posts: 160	Chinese sword for comments I watched this sword on ebay recently and wanted it. I looks like an authenic chinese sword form the late 19th century, but.....a little worried about the pieces out of China in general. I saw a very similar sword at a nearby sword shop. It had the thickest damascus blade I have ever seen on a sword. Much like the one in this auction. The store owner wanted quite a bit more for it too. I would like to add a Chinese sword to my collection, I don't have one yet, and one like this looks to be affordable. What do you guys think? Stephen* http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEDW%3AIT&rd=1

1st June 2006, 03:14 AM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Please Stephen , If you know nothing about Chinese swords then spend your first dollars on a book or two on the subject . With every popular Chinese martial arts movie comes a dozen more sellers of "Antique Chinese Swords" which BTW are illegal to export from China . If you must have a Chinese sword do not buy it from China ; instead use a reputable dealer from a country outside of China .

1st June 2006, 02:51 AM	#2
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	I would stay away from any sword coming out of Hong Kong. Lew

1st June 2006, 02:59 AM	#3
Ferguson Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kernersville, NC, USA Posts: 793	I know nothing about Chinese swords. But I do know Ebay. The private bidders, and private auctions in his feedback raise a red flag to me. Good luck sir. Steve

1st June 2006, 03:10 AM	#4
Yu-Ming Chang Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 21	Actually, this piece looks real to me. Most of the fittings (i.e. suspension bar, chape, etc) are new reproductions and poor ones at that. The guard and pommel look original (or at least old). However, the blade itself shows an higher carbon insert edge and is made of pattern welded steel with lots of slag inclusions evident in the pictures that is typical of late Qing work. (I have some thoughts about this dealer which I can share via PM, if anyone cares). I've some similar pieces in the past which, when etched had some very pretty patterns. This particular piece is pretty broken down and probably has seen a lot of abuse in it's day. The questions is whether it was meant for use as opposed to many made for street performance or training by civilian martial artists. I have a few examples of dao that were pattern welded with insert edge AND differentially hardened with spines only a 1.5 mm thick at the forte. These according to Mr. Tom were pieces intended for performance. This piece in question looks pretty beefy, but given the amount of patina sanded off.....

1st June 2006, 05:45 AM	#6
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	I've got a wushu-type modern jian and a couple of more upscale ones. My advice, based on the experience of buying those blades, is that it's a lot more fun to go to a shop and try out all the blades, and find one that fits you and feels good. I bought my favorite that way, and my two least favorite were bought because they were good deals. Obviously, this isn't the right advice for someone who's collecting a genuine antique piece. On the other hand, it's a heck of a lot more fun, and you know that you'll enjoy what you buy, no matter what the price is. F

1st June 2006, 02:38 PM	#7
IainN Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Canada Posts: 31	That seller had a number of interesting pieces up. As mentioned all the scabbards were new, most of the hilts, and some of the guards were also new. Only one short jian actually looked like an okay piece to me with an original, or at least old, hilting job. The blade on this dao however looked decent but I dislike how all the pieces were finished. To many red flags to be out the money. What concerned me was the other fakes the seller had listed. Also as mentioned there is the legal issue, the seller didn't mention if he had the proper papers and export license. I'm certainly not willing to paypal $3-400 to HK and then have customs nab it.

1st June 2006, 09:56 PM	#8
Yu-Ming Chang Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 21	Does anyone know what the standards/regulations are for antiques being shipped out of Hong Kong? I assuming that enforcement policies are somewhat different?

2nd June 2006, 01:31 AM	#9
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THINGS USED TO BE DIFFERENT BEFORE HONG KONG PASSED BACK INTO CHINESE HANDS BUT I ASSUME THE SAME LAWS NOW APPLY AS IT IS ONE COUNTRY. WHEN CHINA FIRST STARTED TO OPEN HER DOORS THERE WERE WHAT THEY CALLED (FRIENDSHIP STORES, IF I REMEMBER CORECTLY) THEY ACTUALLY SOLD SOME NICE AUTHENTIC ANTIQUES. THEY WERE THE ONLY PLACES WHERE A FORIGNER COULD BUY ANYTHING AS THEY DIDN'T ALLOW FORIGNERS TO HAVE CHINESE MONEY OR SPEND THEIR CURRENCY. I WISH I HAD BOUGHT SOME OF THE SWORDS THEN AS I HAVEN'T SEEN ANYTHING OF THAT QUALITY OFFERED SINCE. I HAVE SEVERAL OF THE BRONZE REPLICA WEAPONS WITH THE RED WAX SEAL FOR EXPORT BUT THAT DOSEN'T PREFORM THE MIRICLE OF MAKING THEM AN AUTHENTIC ANTIQUE BRONZE AGE SWORD. I THINK MOST OF THE GOOD PATINATED EXAMPLES WERE MADE PRE WW2 AND THEN SET IN SHOPS ALL OVER CHINA AFTER THE COMMUNIST REVOLUTION AND THEN HAD A MARKET AGAIN WHEN CHINA FINNALY OPENED HER DOORS AGAIN. IT IS INTERESTING THAT PRE COMMUNIST CHINA HONORED ITS PAST AND COMMUNIST CHINA SAID THE PAST AND ALL OLD THINGS WERE DEAD AND NOT IMPORTANT AND THE OLD WAYS SHOULD BE FORGOTTEN. THERE NOW SEEMS TO BE A CHANGE TO ALLOW THEM TO BE PROUD SELECTIVLY OF THEIR HISTORY AND TO PASS LAWS TO KEEP ANYTHING OLD FROM BEING SOLD OUTSIDE THE COUNTRY. UNFORTUNATELY FOR THE PEOPLE MANY ITEMS ARE COMMON AND OF NO VALUE LOCALLY AND COULD BE SOLD OUTSIDE CHINA IF IT WERE LEGAL. THESE ARE JUST MY OBSERVATIONS AND IT IS A LOT MORE COMPLICATED THAN THESE THOUGHTS.

2nd June 2006, 02:01 AM	#10
Nagawarrior Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Inland Empire, Southern California USA Posts: 160	Thanks to all for your replies. I've learned a lot. Yes Rick, I should invest in a book or two about Chinese weapons. I don't intend to buy more than one or two. If I spend money on books it kills my limited budget. But then I my lose by purchasing a bad piece. Its a catch 22 I guess. I'll also stay away from auctions located in China. I don't want to break the law or take any chances. The sword the the local sword shop has, is exactly like the one in the auction. So if people responded well to the one in the auction I would go back and purchase it. Now I think he has one of the Newly created Chinese swords at his shop. I asked him about the cheap looking mounts verses the rather good blade. His answer was that they didn't spend much on the mounts for mass issue fighting weapons in time of war. I asked if I could take a picture and he got offended that I wasn't taking his word about the antiquity of the sword. I've learned through experience not to trust any dealer. A quote from one well known dealer, "all dealers B.S. from time to time." I've had tails spun for me, let me tell you. I get that deer in the headlight look in my eyes and they know they got me. I hear what I want to hear I guess. Then regret it later after I've had time to think. So I guess this shows one how important it is to educate yourself and only trust your own knowledge. It takes so many years to develop, and so many mistakes. I've learned much since my first collecting experiences. Thanks to all here at the forum for accelerating the learning process.

2nd June 2006, 02:15 AM	#11
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	I've learned through experience not to trust any dealer. A quote from one well known dealer, "all dealers B.S. from time to time." Not all Naga , not all ....