Identify this pair of weapons

jas_lawlor · 2nd February 2005, 10:44 PM

I have had this pair of weapons since 1966. Could someone point in the right direction to identify them. The upper weapon is about 24 inches tip of hilt to tip of sheath. The lower one is about 12 inches. Both are highly decorated on the exterior. The blades are not imitation steel. They are sharp but appear to have been ground down. If you need more pictures, I can take them and then post them.

Since I cannot figure out how to put a picture here, follow the link below to a picture of the weapons.

http://mysite.verizon.net/jas_lawlor/weapons.htm

Thanks,

Jim

RSWORD · 2nd February 2005, 11:00 PM

These are decorative knives typically found in Algeria. They have been making these for sale to tourists since the early 20th century if not slightly earlier.

Rick · 2nd February 2005, 11:01 PM

What you have is a pair of Algerian daggers .
Quite possibly WW2 era .

There is probably engraving and metal inlay on the blades .

ariel · 2nd February 2005, 11:06 PM

These are ceremonial weapons from North Africa (Algiers, Morocco etc).
Some would call them Nimchas; I would hesitate: nimcha is a very specific type of sword.
Usually, this variety of daggers is produced for a tourist market or for ceremonial functions, such as weddings ( this is teeming with Freudian symbolism !!) . Likely between 1960s and yesterdays.

Yannis · 2nd February 2005, 11:15 PM

Sometimes they call them "wedding nimchas". Ceremonial and tourist, too.

This is a real nimcha. A poor one, but the only I got. If anyone has a better example I wish he will post it.

tom hyle · 28th February 2005, 10:13 AM

That's what we call a nimcha in N America, anyway, Greece, too? I hear it's called a saif (sayf) in Arabia and Africa. Saif, or "sword" seems to be the term for a long sword, while I am told that nimcha actually means something about short or small, so the threadstarting type may actually have a better claim to the name....confusing and irrelevant enough? What I've meant to mention about these is that their wearing at formal occasions, as well as their shape (highly curved, thinnish wedge-section blades with fine cutting edges) are suggestive of butchery; typically Berbers feast on freshly slaughtered meat.
There was an interesting varient on ebay recently; I'll see if I still have the number.
I do, and it's like a cross with a flyssa; #6512009521

Conogre · 28th February 2005, 05:40 PM

When I try to follow the link it comes back cannot be found, but from what I've read I'm fairly certain I know the items being discussed here, which immediately made me think of THIS piece and wonder if it's not in the same category?
Overall length 19 1/2" with a 13 1/2" blade that's 15 1/2" if measured along the outside of the razor sharp convex edge.
I picked it up as an inexpensive tourist piece on a whim, and as is so often the case, was quite surprised when it arrived.
For all of it's awkward appearance, it's surprisingly comfortable in the hand with the "guard" hinged so that it adjusts to the grip.
The entire piece is VERY well made, solid and razor sharp with a definite Taureg style, even down to the coloring.
While my initial reacion was that it's gaudy, in fact it's EXACTLY the same colors as a traditional takouba, with the exception that most swords seen are well aged and thus faded.
If this is in fact a Taureg version of a "Nimcha wedding knife" then I'm inclined to think that perhaps both were or are originally ceremonial weapons/knives that are just so exotic in appearance that they've gained wide appeal in the tourist market as well......this goes well with something that Artzi Yarom once told me, that most of the "tourist" pieces are or were real, traditional weapons first and NOT something dreamed up just to part the traveller from his funds.
I hope Artzi will forgive me if the quote isn't exact, but I'm fairly certain it's close in content.
Just as an added thought, while experimenting with different grips I found that if this piece was held with the convex edge facing out and the tip facing the elbow it would be capable of delivering an incredible slice that would have a tremendous disembowelling potential, almost always gauranteed to stop a disagreement, making it far more formidable than it appears at a casual glance.
Mike

tom hyle · 1st March 2005, 04:04 AM

Nice. Is that single edged? How does that squarish handle part work in the hand?

Jim McDougall · 1st March 2005, 05:09 AM

Hi Mike,
This colorful piece you post is most definitely Saharan, and as you note, quite ceremonial. While it is likely found in Tuareg territorial regions, it is most likely not Tuareg, even though clearly influenced by their weapons as you have observed. The blade seems almost like a remnant of a shamshir blade with the clear parabolic curve. The flamboyance of the hilt and scabbard suggest to me Burkina Faso regions, where Mossi tribes prevail, and the extreme colors bring to mind the Fulani of these same regions (who incidentally also carry takoubas). The opposed semi circles on the blades seem interpretive of the opposed crescents seen on takoubas, which may be the Tuareg influence suggested.

I like the reference to Artzi's comment.His perspective on ethnographic weapons is brilliant, and his opinions in discussions paramount. As he perceptively has noted, in these regions even weapons that are primarily elements of costume, are meant to be worn traditionally and carry great significance to those who wear them. Although many are not of the high quality once required when prime combat weapons, they are not simply 'tourist items', in most cases. The ones that are can be easily recognized...they look more like letter openers!

All the best,
Jim

Conogre · 1st March 2005, 07:10 AM

As always, thank you for the information Jim, and I've noted the Mossi/Fulani attributions...the takouba, like the kaskara is found over such a wide range that it's easy to erroneously focus on just one small area and thus leave oneself with built in blind spots.
Tom, the hilt is surprisingly comfortable in the hand as it's small enough that your palm just wraps around it, and yes, it's single edged, sharp on the outside of the curve widening to a thicker spine on the inside like a "real" dagger! **grin**
If you take Hal's comments about a "whirling dervish" style of fighting it's actually easy, as I said, to imagine this slicing without effort and yet having the potential for a return thrust, if delivered upward that would automatically slide right into the chest cavity, a "one-two" attack with awesome lethal potential that actually feels natural and probable, quite unusual for a ceremonial/tourist weapon.
Mike

tom hyle · 1st March 2005, 02:23 PM

Agreed that these, llike European butchering knives, are effective close-quarters weapons; they are fairly clearly meant for opening animals, and very capable of doing just that. The backhand thrust with that needle point is very nasty, too, though often ignored or else sneered at by "Westerners" who haven't felt its bite and often think the smallsword thrust the only kind or the only valid kind, whatever that's suposed to mean.....

2nd February 2005, 10:44 PM	#1
jas_lawlor Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 1	Identify this pair of weapons I have had this pair of weapons since 1966. Could someone point in the right direction to identify them. The upper weapon is about 24 inches tip of hilt to tip of sheath. The lower one is about 12 inches. Both are highly decorated on the exterior. The blades are not imitation steel. They are sharp but appear to have been ground down. If you need more pictures, I can take them and then post them. Since I cannot figure out how to put a picture here, follow the link below to a picture of the weapons. http://mysite.verizon.net/jas_lawlor/weapons.htm Thanks, Jim Last edited by jas_lawlor; 2nd February 2005 at 11:17 PM.

2nd February 2005, 11:15 PM	#5
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	Sometimes they call them "wedding nimchas". Ceremonial and tourist, too. This is a real nimcha. A poor one, but the only I got. If anyone has a better example I wish he will post it. Attached Images

28th February 2005, 05:40 PM	#7
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	When I try to follow the link it comes back cannot be found, but from what I've read I'm fairly certain I know the items being discussed here, which immediately made me think of THIS piece and wonder if it's not in the same category? Overall length 19 1/2" with a 13 1/2" blade that's 15 1/2" if measured along the outside of the razor sharp convex edge. I picked it up as an inexpensive tourist piece on a whim, and as is so often the case, was quite surprised when it arrived. For all of it's awkward appearance, it's surprisingly comfortable in the hand with the "guard" hinged so that it adjusts to the grip. The entire piece is VERY well made, solid and razor sharp with a definite Taureg style, even down to the coloring. While my initial reacion was that it's gaudy, in fact it's EXACTLY the same colors as a traditional takouba, with the exception that most swords seen are well aged and thus faded. If this is in fact a Taureg version of a "Nimcha wedding knife" then I'm inclined to think that perhaps both were or are originally ceremonial weapons/knives that are just so exotic in appearance that they've gained wide appeal in the tourist market as well......this goes well with something that Artzi Yarom once told me, that most of the "tourist" pieces are or were real, traditional weapons first and NOT something dreamed up just to part the traveller from his funds. I hope Artzi will forgive me if the quote isn't exact, but I'm fairly certain it's close in content. Just as an added thought, while experimenting with different grips I found that if this piece was held with the convex edge facing out and the tip facing the elbow it would be capable of delivering an incredible slice that would have a tremendous disembowelling potential, almost always gauranteed to stop a disagreement, making it far more formidable than it appears at a casual glance. Mike Attached Images

2nd February 2005, 11:00 PM	#2
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,084	These are decorative knives typically found in Algeria. They have been making these for sale to tourists since the early 20th century if not slightly earlier.

2nd February 2005, 11:01 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	What you have is a pair of Algerian daggers . Quite possibly WW2 era . There is probably engraving and metal inlay on the blades .

2nd February 2005, 11:06 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	These are ceremonial weapons from North Africa (Algiers, Morocco etc). Some would call them Nimchas; I would hesitate: nimcha is a very specific type of sword. Usually, this variety of daggers is produced for a tourist market or for ceremonial functions, such as weddings ( this is teeming with Freudian symbolism !!) . Likely between 1960s and yesterdays.

28th February 2005, 10:13 AM	#6
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	That's what we call a nimcha in N America, anyway, Greece, too? I hear it's called a saif (sayf) in Arabia and Africa. Saif, or "sword" seems to be the term for a long sword, while I am told that nimcha actually means something about short or small, so the threadstarting type may actually have a better claim to the name....confusing and irrelevant enough? What I've meant to mention about these is that their wearing at formal occasions, as well as their shape (highly curved, thinnish wedge-section blades with fine cutting edges) are suggestive of butchery; typically Berbers feast on freshly slaughtered meat. There was an interesting varient on ebay recently; I'll see if I still have the number. I do, and it's like a cross with a flyssa; #6512009521 Last edited by tom hyle; 28th February 2005 at 10:26 AM.

1st March 2005, 04:04 AM	#8
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Nice. Is that single edged? How does that squarish handle part work in the hand?

1st March 2005, 05:09 AM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Hi Mike, This colorful piece you post is most definitely Saharan, and as you note, quite ceremonial. While it is likely found in Tuareg territorial regions, it is most likely not Tuareg, even though clearly influenced by their weapons as you have observed. The blade seems almost like a remnant of a shamshir blade with the clear parabolic curve. The flamboyance of the hilt and scabbard suggest to me Burkina Faso regions, where Mossi tribes prevail, and the extreme colors bring to mind the Fulani of these same regions (who incidentally also carry takoubas). The opposed semi circles on the blades seem interpretive of the opposed crescents seen on takoubas, which may be the Tuareg influence suggested. I like the reference to Artzi's comment.His perspective on ethnographic weapons is brilliant, and his opinions in discussions paramount. As he perceptively has noted, in these regions even weapons that are primarily elements of costume, are meant to be worn traditionally and carry great significance to those who wear them. Although many are not of the high quality once required when prime combat weapons, they are not simply 'tourist items', in most cases. The ones that are can be easily recognized...they look more like letter openers! All the best, Jim

1st March 2005, 07:10 AM	#10
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	As always, thank you for the information Jim, and I've noted the Mossi/Fulani attributions...the takouba, like the kaskara is found over such a wide range that it's easy to erroneously focus on just one small area and thus leave oneself with built in blind spots. Tom, the hilt is surprisingly comfortable in the hand as it's small enough that your palm just wraps around it, and yes, it's single edged, sharp on the outside of the curve widening to a thicker spine on the inside like a "real" dagger! grin If you take Hal's comments about a "whirling dervish" style of fighting it's actually easy, as I said, to imagine this slicing without effort and yet having the potential for a return thrust, if delivered upward that would automatically slide right into the chest cavity, a "one-two" attack with awesome lethal potential that actually feels natural and probable, quite unusual for a ceremonial/tourist weapon. Mike

1st March 2005, 02:23 PM	#11
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Agreed that these, llike European butchering knives, are effective close-quarters weapons; they are fairly clearly meant for opening animals, and very capable of doing just that. The backhand thrust with that needle point is very nasty, too, though often ignored or else sneered at by "Westerners" who haven't felt its bite and often think the smallsword thrust the only kind or the only valid kind, whatever that's suposed to mean.....