Tulwar or Khanda

Andy Stevens · 20th April 2005, 01:05 PM

This old Indian piece has got me thinking, is it a Tulwar or a Khanda? The blade is 29 inches long and 1inch at the tip. The false edge is 7 inches long. The blade has two fullers and an interesting mark (second picture). Another mark can be found as the ricasso (bottom picture). The weapon is heavy and feels very functional, a real fighting tool. Where do these swords come from and who used them? Thanks

Andrew · 20th April 2005, 02:54 PM

I usually think of swords with these straight, flaring blades as khanda, Andy.

tom hyle · 20th April 2005, 03:08 PM

Seems like a fairly typical khanda blade in tulwar dress; was such a typical sword in any time/place/tribe?

Ian · 20th April 2005, 03:11 PM

I agree with Andrew and Tom, this appears to be a tulwar-hilted khanda. The trident-like symbol may be Sikh in origin, while the khanda itself is a religious symbol for the Sikhs. The manner of the blade sharpening, with quite a prominent "bite" into the blade where it starts at the forte, and perhaps the rather squared-off ends to the quillions might also suggest a Sikh (Punjab) origin -- but that could be reading too much. Jim McD. can give you a better idea about the origin of this one.

Rick · 20th April 2005, 03:37 PM

Hi Andy , could you possibly take a sharp picture of the circular stamp near the langet ?
I would appreciate it very much !

Andy Stevens · 20th April 2005, 07:50 PM

Hello Rick
Here is a picture of the round stamp. I dont think the clarity will help much. Is this a makers stamp? I intend to post a couple of other Indian bits soon, I will try to get better photos.

Rick · 20th April 2005, 08:02 PM

Hi Andy , any similarity to this stamp ?
I would guess it is a partial MFR's stamp .

spiral · 20th April 2005, 08:35 PM

In Nepal they are called, Khanda,Kharga & Khadga.

Spiral

ariel · 20th April 2005, 09:15 PM

I seem to be out of line here, but to me it is a Patissa rather than Khanda.
Khandas traditionally have metal reinforcements on foth edges , covering about 2/3 and 1/3 of the edge respectively. And, of course the usually have what rawson called Indian Basket handle.
Patissa, on the other hand, is just a staright double edge sword widening towards the tip. Seems to fit.
Objections?

tom hyle · 21st April 2005, 01:49 AM

I think this sword is single edged, except at the tip? Also, It seems to me that the reinforcing strips are commonly rivetted or soldered on, and could be viewed (I was viewing them so) as part of the dress, though they could certainly also be viewed as part of the blade.....

RSWORD · 21st April 2005, 03:20 AM

Aren't Khanda and Pattisa blades typically double edged? As Tom points out, this blade is single edged and this seems a bit atypical to the other blade types. I have an example in my collection with a blade that is also single edged with a Pattisa/Khanda like tip, however, I do not believe that tip configuration was original to the blade on my example. My sword has a different hilt style than the example posted here. Perhaps these are a different blade form and shouldn't be lumped in with Pattisa or Khanda.

tom hyle · 21st April 2005, 03:27 AM

I've seen a number of SE khandas, only DE at the tip; I'd actually thought it the norm?

tom hyle · 21st April 2005, 03:36 AM

I searched the old forum and found an interesting thread called "can it be a khanda or what?" No pic, but I think it pertains to this type of sword.

Jim McDougall · 21st April 2005, 05:01 AM

In looking at this interesting example, I tend to agree with Tom in that the hilt appears to be more in line with tulwar hilts. While the unusual spooned blade tip does resemble those typically seen on examples of 'pattisa' as Ariel has suggested, this blade also does seem single edged.
Pant (p.65-66) notes that the pattisa blades are double edged, with the pattisa's being quite flexible and the seatings are typically longer than the khanda. It should be noted that the original khandas had very similar hilts to this form and that both khanda and pattisa were originally from S. central India.

I am inclined to think that this example is from the northern regions, most likely Rajasthan. It is noted that khanda/pattisa hybrids are known, which is not at all surprising with the broad diffusion of weapons in the Indian subcontinent. This very diffusion took the khanda to the north where as noted it did become a religious icon to the Sikhs, in the more well known form with the so called 'Hindu basket hilt'. The actual worship of the khanda was also well known by the Rajputs, who prevailed in Rajasthan regions, and the trisula was key in symbolism to Shiva.
Without going further into the complexities and similarities in Rajput and Sikh dogma, I am simply noting the trisula as it appears on the blade of this example. As far as I am aware, and in discussions with Sikhs asking about such symbolism, I have been told there are not distinctive symbols that are found on Sikh blades that would designate them as such.

However, in "Annals and Antiquities of Rajasthan' by Lt. Col. James Tod, 1829, there is a geometric device representing a lance which is the sign of a prince or chieftain from a principality in Mewar (Rajasthan) which seems to correspond with the trident seen on this example in stylized form (p.164).
This suggests as well that this sword may well be from these regions, in addition to the unreinforced hilt of tulwar form. The cartouche which seems to be a makers stamp is also placed in the quadrant of the blade root where similar stamps are found in many early tulwar blades from these regions, the inscriptions often in Urdu.

It would be difficult to concisely classify this sword into a single category by term, but best described as probably Rajput khanda with traditional form hilt and pattisa type blade. I guess it would be a matter of opinion

since the hilt is closer to tulwar form than the old khanda, and the blade itself doesnt really conform to the description of the pattisa blades except in the widened tip.

Best regards,
Jim

Radu Transylvanicus · 23rd April 2005, 10:14 PM

One of the best Sikh websites i`ve seen (unfortunatelly when I tried the link, it has fallen now ) reffered to this type as ,,Southern Indian Talwar,, and the symbols on it point to Sikh origins as far as the age, thats a whole new story ...
Sorry to disapoint those that were expecting a very exotic name to match with this unusual piece...
And ANDY ! Since you are in London you can take a picture to a Sikh temple and ask nicely to have one of the seniors take a look at it . The sword is SIKH for sure !

Jim McDougall · 24th April 2005, 01:38 AM

That is extremely compelling evidence Radu!! Excellent idea about taking this to a Sikh temple, I look forward to hearing more on the symbols used to mark Sikh swords. Unfortunately the research I did a number of years ago, including speaking with the authors of the book "Warrior Saints" which was published in association with The Sikh Foundation, revealed no evidence of specific markings used historically on Sikh blades.
It is very exciting news that you have positively identified this as a Sikh TALWAR from southern India!!

and relieved us of the search for the correct exotic term for this.Yay!
Jim

Andy Stevens · 24th April 2005, 05:38 PM

Wow, I will have to pop along to Tooting and ask a few polite queastions. Many thanks for all the effort put in.

20th April 2005, 01:05 PM	#1
Andy Stevens Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: London Posts: 155	Tulwar or Khanda This old Indian piece has got me thinking, is it a Tulwar or a Khanda? The blade is 29 inches long and 1inch at the tip. The false edge is 7 inches long. The blade has two fullers and an interesting mark (second picture). Another mark can be found as the ricasso (bottom picture). The weapon is heavy and feels very functional, a real fighting tool. Where do these swords come from and who used them? Thanks Attached Images

20th April 2005, 07:50 PM	#6
Andy Stevens Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: London Posts: 155	Hello Rick Here is a picture of the round stamp. I dont think the clarity will help much. Is this a makers stamp? I intend to post a couple of other Indian bits soon, I will try to get better photos. Attached Images

20th April 2005, 08:02 PM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Hi Andy , any similarity to this stamp ? I would guess it is a partial MFR's stamp . Attached Images

24th April 2005, 01:38 AM	#16
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	That is extremely compelling evidence Radu!! Excellent idea about taking this to a Sikh temple, I look forward to hearing more on the symbols used to mark Sikh swords. Unfortunately the research I did a number of years ago, including speaking with the authors of the book "Warrior Saints" which was published in association with The Sikh Foundation, revealed no evidence of specific markings used historically on Sikh blades. It is very exciting news that you have positively identified this as a Sikh TALWAR from southern India!! and relieved us of the search for the correct exotic term for this.Yay! Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 24th April 2005 at 01:52 AM.

20th April 2005, 02:54 PM	#2
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	I usually think of swords with these straight, flaring blades as khanda, Andy.

20th April 2005, 03:08 PM	#3
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Seems like a fairly typical khanda blade in tulwar dress; was such a typical sword in any time/place/tribe?

20th April 2005, 03:11 PM	#4
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	I agree with Andrew and Tom, this appears to be a tulwar-hilted khanda. The trident-like symbol may be Sikh in origin, while the khanda itself is a religious symbol for the Sikhs. The manner of the blade sharpening, with quite a prominent "bite" into the blade where it starts at the forte, and perhaps the rather squared-off ends to the quillions might also suggest a Sikh (Punjab) origin -- but that could be reading too much. Jim McD. can give you a better idea about the origin of this one.

20th April 2005, 03:37 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Hi Andy , could you possibly take a sharp picture of the circular stamp near the langet ? I would appreciate it very much !

20th April 2005, 08:35 PM	#8
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	In Nepal they are called, Khanda,Kharga & Khadga. Spiral

20th April 2005, 09:15 PM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I seem to be out of line here, but to me it is a Patissa rather than Khanda. Khandas traditionally have metal reinforcements on foth edges , covering about 2/3 and 1/3 of the edge respectively. And, of course the usually have what rawson called Indian Basket handle. Patissa, on the other hand, is just a staright double edge sword widening towards the tip. Seems to fit. Objections?

21st April 2005, 01:49 AM	#10
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I think this sword is single edged, except at the tip? Also, It seems to me that the reinforcing strips are commonly rivetted or soldered on, and could be viewed (I was viewing them so) as part of the dress, though they could certainly also be viewed as part of the blade.....

21st April 2005, 03:20 AM	#11
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	Aren't Khanda and Pattisa blades typically double edged? As Tom points out, this blade is single edged and this seems a bit atypical to the other blade types. I have an example in my collection with a blade that is also single edged with a Pattisa/Khanda like tip, however, I do not believe that tip configuration was original to the blade on my example. My sword has a different hilt style than the example posted here. Perhaps these are a different blade form and shouldn't be lumped in with Pattisa or Khanda.

21st April 2005, 03:27 AM	#12
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I've seen a number of SE khandas, only DE at the tip; I'd actually thought it the norm?

21st April 2005, 03:36 AM	#13
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I searched the old forum and found an interesting thread called "can it be a khanda or what?" No pic, but I think it pertains to this type of sword.

21st April 2005, 05:01 AM	#14
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	In looking at this interesting example, I tend to agree with Tom in that the hilt appears to be more in line with tulwar hilts. While the unusual spooned blade tip does resemble those typically seen on examples of 'pattisa' as Ariel has suggested, this blade also does seem single edged. Pant (p.65-66) notes that the pattisa blades are double edged, with the pattisa's being quite flexible and the seatings are typically longer than the khanda. It should be noted that the original khandas had very similar hilts to this form and that both khanda and pattisa were originally from S. central India. I am inclined to think that this example is from the northern regions, most likely Rajasthan. It is noted that khanda/pattisa hybrids are known, which is not at all surprising with the broad diffusion of weapons in the Indian subcontinent. This very diffusion took the khanda to the north where as noted it did become a religious icon to the Sikhs, in the more well known form with the so called 'Hindu basket hilt'. The actual worship of the khanda was also well known by the Rajputs, who prevailed in Rajasthan regions, and the trisula was key in symbolism to Shiva. Without going further into the complexities and similarities in Rajput and Sikh dogma, I am simply noting the trisula as it appears on the blade of this example. As far as I am aware, and in discussions with Sikhs asking about such symbolism, I have been told there are not distinctive symbols that are found on Sikh blades that would designate them as such. However, in "Annals and Antiquities of Rajasthan' by Lt. Col. James Tod, 1829, there is a geometric device representing a lance which is the sign of a prince or chieftain from a principality in Mewar (Rajasthan) which seems to correspond with the trident seen on this example in stylized form (p.164). This suggests as well that this sword may well be from these regions, in addition to the unreinforced hilt of tulwar form. The cartouche which seems to be a makers stamp is also placed in the quadrant of the blade root where similar stamps are found in many early tulwar blades from these regions, the inscriptions often in Urdu. It would be difficult to concisely classify this sword into a single category by term, but best described as probably Rajput khanda with traditional form hilt and pattisa type blade. I guess it would be a matter of opinion since the hilt is closer to tulwar form than the old khanda, and the blade itself doesnt really conform to the description of the pattisa blades except in the widened tip. Best regards, Jim

23rd April 2005, 10:14 PM	#15
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	One of the best Sikh websites i`ve seen (unfortunatelly when I tried the link, it has fallen now ) reffered to this type as ,,Southern Indian Talwar,, and the symbols on it point to Sikh origins as far as the age, thats a whole new story ... Sorry to disapoint those that were expecting a very exotic name to match with this unusual piece... And ANDY ! Since you are in London you can take a picture to a Sikh temple and ask nicely to have one of the seniors take a look at it . The sword is SIKH for sure !

24th April 2005, 05:38 PM	#17
Andy Stevens Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: London Posts: 155	Wow, I will have to pop along to Tooting and ask a few polite queastions. Many thanks for all the effort put in.