Info on English percussion pistol ??

hbhansen · 30th June 2013, 10:24 PM

I won the auction on this pistol today. It came with a Danish M/1848 Liege cavalry pistol which is going into my collection.
Since I know nothing about this pistol I ask for your help, any info will be greatly appreciated.
The auction house called it a "English composite percussion pistol".
Thank you.
HB

Tony PP · 1st July 2013, 07:46 AM

Composite meaning made up from bits of other guns. Looks like and old barrel and lock with a new stock and brass butt cap. The trigger and guard look like they come from a shotgun. Please do not attempt to fire this. The throw of the hammer appears to not clear the nipple if it had a cap on it. The lock plate shows two screw holes but from the other side only one screw head is visable. Check how the barrel is secured to the stock. I have shot many old pistols that have been made up but the build quality of this one I think is a little suspect.

kronckew · 1st July 2013, 09:24 AM

no makers or proof marks?

hbhansen · 1st July 2013, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

no makers or proof marks?

I do not see any on the pics. I have not yet recieved the guns, but maybe when they arrive, I will find some marks...

fernando · 1st July 2013, 08:33 PM

It looks all very crude, doesn't it ?

.
The barrel must have been for flint, converted to percussion; this would explain the shape of the present lock plate.
The stock looks like a raw work, not made by a professional gun maker.

kronckew · 2nd July 2013, 07:33 AM

i was also suspicious of it being a recent pakistani/indian unproofed replica. hence my guarded comments. they frequently have misaligned nipples and hammers and rather crude workmanship at the low end tourista level. many do not even have the vent holes drilled thru. the lock, barrel, and strapping are crudely inlayed and gaps filed with some gunk, the pins holding the barrel seem rather thin as well. i suspect the wall thickness of the barrel will turn out to be rather thin. i saw a replica lion butt cap on sale for £18 that looked very much like that one. but better.

the composite description was telling. i was waiting for more comments before posting this. i was reluctant to be the first bearer of bad news.

it was interesting to watch a video of the arms trade in durra, pakistan where young children with copper plumbing tubing cut it to length and hand swaged it into cartridges for ak47's. the ak47's their parents made by hand out of steel scrap. and racks of new martini-henrys, and similarly new 'old' enfield rifled muskets. the better ones even have almost-correct stamps and even reasonably heat treated parts. if you want a new tavor tar-21 assault rifle, you can watch them make it in front of you.

hbhansen · 2nd July 2013, 09:11 PM

Hmm this is not good news.
I was expecting to sell this one to reduce the price on the other one. If this is a copy it is pretty much worthless

I think I must talk to the auktion house tomorrow....
Thanks Guys.
Any more comment would be appreciated.
If you follow this link, it is possible to zoom in on the pics. http://www.bruun-rasmussen.dk/sold-i...en&mode=detail
Best
HB

Jim McDougall · 2nd July 2013, 11:14 PM

Kronckew, you are a true gentleman, and I know with your knowledge on these guns that you were withholding out of genuine courtesy. I felt the same way when I looked at this, and I always feel badly when one of our own ends up with one of these kinds of deals.

With only a 'working knowledge' on firearms I very much appreciate the detail you have added to benefit all on recognizing the particulars on these.
Excellent assessments by Tony also, and clearly Fernando joined in our suspicions. It sounds like the auction caption was actually accurate, but as always terminology can be a slippery slope at times.

The Danish pistol in itself is a 'conquest' as these seem kind of hard to find in my view, as are most Danish arms.

I think one telling thing that was a major red flag to me was the lionhead butt cap. These guns are presumably representative of the East India Co. pistols which seem to usually have the rampant lion on the lock, and the butt plate is flat brass. Ive never seen a lionhead butt plate on a military pistol.
From a purely ethnographic point of view, this is an interesting example of one of the products of this intriguing area Khyber region as these arms making traditions have been practiced there for centuries. That to me makes this sort of fascinating inherently so lesson learned, and good item to have as an example.
H.B. ,
Trust me, in my years of collecting some of my 'misteakes' were far, far less interesting so the sting was much worse.

Your reasoning was sound and well played though in the acquisition.

kahnjar1 · 9th July 2013, 06:51 AM

I have tended not to comment on this section of the Forum as it is a while since I dabbled in these things. I do however have to agree with others comments about this piece. There are a number of relatively obvious "errors" which suggest NOT of English make, and I do feel not of factory manufacture either. I use the term "factory" to describe what those in Europe understand as a place of firearms manufacture.
IF there are any proof marks present then at best I would think a put together piece using available parts from other guns.
Don't be disheartened as we have all (if we are truthful) been caught like this at some time. It is how we learn..................
Stu

hbhansen · 18th July 2013, 07:43 PM

Thank you very much to all of you.
The buy has been cancelled and i my money has been returned.
Best
HB

30th June 2013, 10:24 PM	#1
hbhansen Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Denmark Posts: 89	Info on English percussion pistol ?? I won the auction on this pistol today. It came with a Danish M/1848 Liege cavalry pistol which is going into my collection. Since I know nothing about this pistol I ask for your help, any info will be greatly appreciated. The auction house called it a "English composite percussion pistol". Thank you. HB Attached Images Last edited by hbhansen; 30th June 2013 at 10:36 PM.

1st July 2013, 07:46 AM	#2
Tony PP Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 26	Composite ? Composite meaning made up from bits of other guns. Looks like and old barrel and lock with a new stock and brass butt cap. The trigger and guard look like they come from a shotgun. Please do not attempt to fire this. The throw of the hammer appears to not clear the nipple if it had a cap on it. The lock plate shows two screw holes but from the other side only one screw head is visable. Check how the barrel is secured to the stock. I have shot many old pistols that have been made up but the build quality of this one I think is a little suspect.

1st July 2013, 08:33 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	I could be wrong, but It looks all very crude, doesn't it ? . The barrel must have been for flint, converted to percussion; this would explain the shape of the present lock plate. The stock looks like a raw work, not made by a professional gun maker.

2nd July 2013, 09:11 PM	#7
hbhansen Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Denmark Posts: 89	Hmm this is not good news. I was expecting to sell this one to reduce the price on the other one. If this is a copy it is pretty much worthless I think I must talk to the auktion house tomorrow.... Thanks Guys. Any more comment would be appreciated. If you follow this link, it is possible to zoom in on the pics. http://www.bruun-rasmussen.dk/sold-i...en&mode=detail Best HB Last edited by hbhansen; 2nd July 2013 at 09:24 PM.

1st July 2013, 09:24 AM	#3
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	no makers or proof marks?

2nd July 2013, 07:33 AM	#6
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	i was also suspicious of it being a recent pakistani/indian unproofed replica. hence my guarded comments. they frequently have misaligned nipples and hammers and rather crude workmanship at the low end tourista level. many do not even have the vent holes drilled thru. the lock, barrel, and strapping are crudely inlayed and gaps filed with some gunk, the pins holding the barrel seem rather thin as well. i suspect the wall thickness of the barrel will turn out to be rather thin. i saw a replica lion butt cap on sale for £18 that looked very much like that one. but better. the composite description was telling. i was waiting for more comments before posting this. i was reluctant to be the first bearer of bad news. it was interesting to watch a video of the arms trade in durra, pakistan where young children with copper plumbing tubing cut it to length and hand swaged it into cartridges for ak47's. the ak47's their parents made by hand out of steel scrap. and racks of new martini-henrys, and similarly new 'old' enfield rifled muskets. the better ones even have almost-correct stamps and even reasonably heat treated parts. if you want a new tavor tar-21 assault rifle, you can watch them make it in front of you.

2nd July 2013, 11:14 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,948	Kronckew, you are a true gentleman, and I know with your knowledge on these guns that you were withholding out of genuine courtesy. I felt the same way when I looked at this, and I always feel badly when one of our own ends up with one of these kinds of deals. With only a 'working knowledge' on firearms I very much appreciate the detail you have added to benefit all on recognizing the particulars on these. Excellent assessments by Tony also, and clearly Fernando joined in our suspicions. It sounds like the auction caption was actually accurate, but as always terminology can be a slippery slope at times. The Danish pistol in itself is a 'conquest' as these seem kind of hard to find in my view, as are most Danish arms. I think one telling thing that was a major red flag to me was the lionhead butt cap. These guns are presumably representative of the East India Co. pistols which seem to usually have the rampant lion on the lock, and the butt plate is flat brass. Ive never seen a lionhead butt plate on a military pistol. From a purely ethnographic point of view, this is an interesting example of one of the products of this intriguing area Khyber region as these arms making traditions have been practiced there for centuries. That to me makes this sort of fascinating inherently so lesson learned, and good item to have as an example. H.B. , Trust me, in my years of collecting some of my 'misteakes' were far, far less interesting so the sting was much worse. Your reasoning was sound and well played though in the acquisition.

9th July 2013, 06:51 AM	#9
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	I have tended not to comment on this section of the Forum as it is a while since I dabbled in these things. I do however have to agree with others comments about this piece. There are a number of relatively obvious "errors" which suggest NOT of English make, and I do feel not of factory manufacture either. I use the term "factory" to describe what those in Europe understand as a place of firearms manufacture. IF there are any proof marks present then at best I would think a put together piece using available parts from other guns. Don't be disheartened as we have all (if we are truthful) been caught like this at some time. It is how we learn.................. Stu

18th July 2013, 07:43 PM	#10
hbhansen Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Denmark Posts: 89	Thank you very much to all of you. The buy has been cancelled and i my money has been returned. Best HB