British service in India sword ?

rand · 7th November 2008, 12:45 AM

Believe this is a British general officer sword, pattern 1822 for serice in India. Can anyone elaborate on it?

thanks,

rand

Jim McDougall · 7th November 2008, 07:40 AM

Especially nice example Rand! This is indeed the pattern 1822 (known as the 'gothic hilt' ) with the cartouche enclosing Queen Victoria's royal cypher with the added 'I' for India. She was proclaimed Empress of India May 1,1876 so this hilt post dates that event, and was used until 1890's (the pattern 1895 supplanted this form hilt).
If we could get a close up of the six point star surrounding the brass proof disc we might get an idea of the outfitter, or if there are markings in the etched motif.
Weapons from the British Raj are extremely desirable, representing this colorful military heritage in India, and these officers swords with the VRI cartouche have always seemed rather rare in coming up for sale.

All the best,
Jim

kahnjar1 · 7th November 2008, 08:03 AM

I may be wrong but I believe the Star of David surrounding the proof was used by Wilkinson.
Stu

rand · 7th November 2008, 01:52 PM

Hey Guys,

Thanks for your information. Hee is a photo of the mark, It says "Proved T."

Was interesting about the added "I" for India.....

rand

rand · 7th November 2008, 04:59 PM

Have been advised that this sword may be a copy and to check the discriminating general site which I have, the decoraion on the spine of the hilt is different. Not sure if hey make more than one copy or not. This sword has been hanging on the wall at my brothers house for over thirty years...

Would like your thoughts on if this may be a copy or not.

I do appreciate all opinions.....

rand

rand · 7th November 2008, 05:24 PM

Picture of copy made by "Discriminating General.....

katana · 7th November 2008, 07:02 PM

Hi Rand

,
here are pictures of another 1822 pattern with a similar 'back strap'.... but with a George IV catouche on the 'guard'

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?im...%3Den%26sa%3DN

Is there a possibility that this is a P1845 Officer's Sword. Very nearly identical to the P1822. I understand that the difference being that the P1845 has a fullered "Wilkinson" blade instead of a pipe back blade ??

Regards David

Norman McCormick · 7th November 2008, 07:11 PM

Hi,
I think that Rand's sword is an 1845 pattern with the 1854 variant hilt. The 1822 has a pipe back blade and a partially folding basket, the 1845 a single fullered spearpoint blade and the 1854 variant a fixed basket. There will always be exceptions but as far as I can remember this was the specifications as per the British Army.
Regards,
Norman.

rand · 7th November 2008, 10:14 PM

Besides what pattern the sword is am now trying to find out if it is a copy or not. The threads I have read on this subject no longer have the photo's attached to reference. If you know a related thread reguarding to this proof mark or sword please post the link here..

thanks,
rand

katana · 7th November 2008, 11:45 PM

Rand,
Robert Wilkinson-Latham mentions the 'proved T' mark in this thread....

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=87782

Regards

rand · 12th November 2008, 06:20 AM

After reading other posts on British swords it seems likely this sword is a copy made over thirty years ago. Was surprised that they had made copies of this sword that long ago..... Was purchased just after the movie "Zulu Dawn" came out, if you have not seen it rent it. Thank you all for your input...

rand

7th November 2008, 12:45 AM	#1
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	British service in India sword ? Believe this is a British general officer sword, pattern 1822 for serice in India. Can anyone elaborate on it? thanks, rand Attached Images

7th November 2008, 01:52 PM	#4
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Hey Guys, Thanks for your information. Hee is a photo of the mark, It says "Proved T." Was interesting about the added "I" for India..... rand Attached Images

7th November 2008, 04:59 PM	#5
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Have been advised that this sword may be a copy and to check the discriminating general site which I have, the decoraion on the spine of the hilt is different. Not sure if hey make more than one copy or not. This sword has been hanging on the wall at my brothers house for over thirty years... Would like your thoughts on if this may be a copy or not. I do appreciate all opinions..... rand Attached Images Last edited by rand; 7th November 2008 at 05:53 PM.

7th November 2008, 05:24 PM	#6
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Picture of copy made by "Discriminating General..... Attached Images

7th November 2008, 07:02 PM	#7
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Rand , here are pictures of another 1822 pattern with a similar 'back strap'.... but with a George IV catouche on the 'guard' http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?im...%3Den%26sa%3DN Is there a possibility that this is a P1845 Officer's Sword. Very nearly identical to the P1822. I understand that the difference being that the P1845 has a fullered "Wilkinson" blade instead of a pipe back blade ?? Regards David Last edited by katana; 7th November 2008 at 07:13 PM.

7th November 2008, 07:40 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	Especially nice example Rand! This is indeed the pattern 1822 (known as the 'gothic hilt' ) with the cartouche enclosing Queen Victoria's royal cypher with the added 'I' for India. She was proclaimed Empress of India May 1,1876 so this hilt post dates that event, and was used until 1890's (the pattern 1895 supplanted this form hilt). If we could get a close up of the six point star surrounding the brass proof disc we might get an idea of the outfitter, or if there are markings in the etched motif. Weapons from the British Raj are extremely desirable, representing this colorful military heritage in India, and these officers swords with the VRI cartouche have always seemed rather rare in coming up for sale. All the best, Jim

7th November 2008, 08:03 AM	#3
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,741	I may be wrong but I believe the Star of David surrounding the proof was used by Wilkinson. Stu

7th November 2008, 07:11 PM	#8
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,598	Hi, I think that Rand's sword is an 1845 pattern with the 1854 variant hilt. The 1822 has a pipe back blade and a partially folding basket, the 1845 a single fullered spearpoint blade and the 1854 variant a fixed basket. There will always be exceptions but as far as I can remember this was the specifications as per the British Army. Regards, Norman. Last edited by Norman McCormick; 7th November 2008 at 07:18 PM. Reason: Further Info.

7th November 2008, 10:14 PM	#9
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Besides what pattern the sword is am now trying to find out if it is a copy or not. The threads I have read on this subject no longer have the photo's attached to reference. If you know a related thread reguarding to this proof mark or sword please post the link here.. thanks, rand

7th November 2008, 11:45 PM	#10
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Rand, Robert Wilkinson-Latham mentions the 'proved T' mark in this thread.... http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=87782 Regards

12th November 2008, 06:20 AM	#11
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	After reading other posts on British swords it seems likely this sword is a copy made over thirty years ago. Was surprised that they had made copies of this sword that long ago..... Was purchased just after the movie "Zulu Dawn" came out, if you have not seen it rent it. Thank you all for your input... rand