unknown knife

Freddy · 15th June 2011, 11:18 AM

I recently purchased this knife. The seller thought it came from the North Coast of America or even the Artic.

The knife has a thick, straight, double-edged blade. The handle is made out of bone (or ivory). It's a heavy piece, weighing 285 gr.

It came with a wooden sheath, covered in leather.

Total length : 25,5 cm.

Length of blade : 15,5 cm.

Anyone has an idea of its origin ?

tom hyle · 15th June 2011, 01:06 PM

European sailor?

katana · 15th June 2011, 02:17 PM

Hi Freddy,
my initial thoughts are that it is, perhaps, North African. The sheath is typical, similar to the Bou Saddi types. The blade looks very similar to the Fairbairn Sykes commando dagger ...issued during WW2 , so could be a rehilted/reworked blade or a native copy.Bearing in mind the conflict in North Africa during WW2 involving the British, it seems likely such daggers could be acquired by the locals.
The handle looks to be bone with resin used to secure the tang.

Looking again at the blade.....could it be a re-worked file ?

Kind Regards David

ericlaude · 15th June 2011, 06:17 PM

Hi Freddy,
I aggree with katana, for my opinion, it's an Algerian Bou Saadi freestyle, maked with a French or english military blade. The scabbard is typical Bou Saadi style.

tom hyle · 15th June 2011, 08:04 PM

The scabbard does resemble those, but aren't they sewn up the back edge rather than the spine? Also, the suspension strap is missing; is there a broken end of leather strap sticking out around the throat of the scabbard?
Also, there is usually, If you're talking about what I think you're talking about (kodme), usually a hole that runs all the way thru the handle, thru which is passed a string of leather that heps keep the knife in the sheath (ie. a detente). Is the dot we see such a hole? It seems on the small side.

tom hyle · 15th June 2011, 08:06 PM

also, the securing of the tang with molten lead is something often seen on folk-level, nonprofessional European and N American work. The Berbers usually try to roll with a flat tang on the kodmes etc.

Freddy · 17th June 2011, 01:43 PM

David,

I don't think it's a used Wo II commando dagger. I think it's a piece made out of a file

. I tried to make a more detailed pic and added this to the thread. Look at the base of the blade.

The blade is quite 'thick', measuring about 6 mm near the base and tapering towards the point.

Some time ago, I posted a 'Bou Saadi' knife on the forum. Although the scabbard looks similar, I found quite some differences (as Tom pointed out). The knife itself is totally different.

Here's the link : http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/printthread.php?t=4107

laEspadaAncha · 17th June 2011, 08:17 PM

IMHO the flattened, double-edged blade appears distinctly European or American, though the scabbard does appear Bou Saddi in style (at least with regards to its general shape). Definitely wouldn't be the first hybrid marriage of imported blade and local hilt in the region.

tom hyle · 18th June 2011, 03:55 AM

I think that's a scar from vice jaws at the base of the blade.

tom hyle · 18th June 2011, 12:55 PM

again, is that a hole that passes through the grip?

Freddy · 20th June 2011, 09:36 PM

No, Tom. There's no hole in the handle. I can add that the handle is very heavy.

tom hyle · 21st June 2011, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freddy

No, Tom. There's no hole in the handle. I can add that the handle is very heavy.

Yeah, there's a certain amount of lead in it. I wonder though, if there's anyway to tell CSI style; you never know; if the handle would turn out to be a piece of a whale, even. European sailor anyhow.

Freddy · 23rd June 2011, 11:51 AM

The knife came with other pieces : one small ivory box and a Yu'pik (eskimo ?) mask.

These were brought back from Alaska in the seventies by a French artist (so I was told).

tom hyle · 23rd June 2011, 02:47 PM

The whale's tooth box has on it a counting board of some kind; perhaps to do with gaming. How large is it? Might it be a box for some kind of gambling etc. devices such as dice, etc.? Supposedly the Northern peoples gamble a lot in the winter (not that summer stops the rest of us

) Cool box.

Tim Simmons · 23rd June 2011, 07:08 PM

The plot thickens. Looks like you might have found quite an interesting knife. What do you make of the leather? is it sewn with sinew?

Sajen · 23rd June 2011, 09:44 PM

The mask is great!

A very rare object so far I know.

Regards,

Detlef

Freddy · 24th June 2011, 02:16 PM

Here's a closer view of the stitching on the leather. I don't know exactly what it is.

The whale tooth box measures approx. 9,3 cm. It came together with a tooth (don't know what animal it came from), measuring 9,5 cm.

Here are some additional pics :

archer · 24th June 2011, 03:54 PM

Hi Freddy, My first thought was and remains especially with the new information. What about an Oyster knife? Used in coastal areas to try open shelled sea food. The Markings are likely, done to legalize the ivory and made to identify a Native craftsman. I think the artifacts are interesting as well.
Steve

Tim Simmons · 24th June 2011, 07:06 PM

In town at the British Museum looking at the American Arctic and Danish too, dont forget. This knife is a little bit longer but is in common form fashioned from trade iron goods.

When ever I go into town this rather sweat elderly lady always seems to get in the way of my snaps?

tom hyle · 25th June 2011, 02:23 AM

The pic's a bit fuzzy, but it still looks like sail thread.
The other tooth looks like a whale tooth, too?
The other knife looks a bit like a puuko/leuko.

15th June 2011, 11:18 AM	#1
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	unknown knife I recently purchased this knife. The seller thought it came from the North Coast of America or even the Artic. The knife has a thick, straight, double-edged blade. The handle is made out of bone (or ivory). It's a heavy piece, weighing 285 gr. It came with a wooden sheath, covered in leather. Total length : 25,5 cm. Length of blade : 15,5 cm. Anyone has an idea of its origin ? Attached Images

17th June 2011, 01:43 PM	#7
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	David, I don't think it's a used Wo II commando dagger. I think it's a piece made out of a file . I tried to make a more detailed pic and added this to the thread. Look at the base of the blade. The blade is quite 'thick', measuring about 6 mm near the base and tapering towards the point. Some time ago, I posted a 'Bou Saadi' knife on the forum. Although the scabbard looks similar, I found quite some differences (as Tom pointed out). The knife itself is totally different. Here's the link : http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/printthread.php?t=4107 Attached Images

23rd June 2011, 11:51 AM	#13
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	The knife came with other pieces : one small ivory box and a Yu'pik (eskimo ?) mask. These were brought back from Alaska in the seventies by a French artist (so I was told). Attached Images

24th June 2011, 02:16 PM	#17
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	Here's a closer view of the stitching on the leather. I don't know exactly what it is. The whale tooth box measures approx. 9,3 cm. It came together with a tooth (don't know what animal it came from), measuring 9,5 cm. Here are some additional pics : Attached Images

24th June 2011, 03:54 PM	#18
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	A Guess Hi Freddy, My first thought was and remains especially with the new information. What about an Oyster knife? Used in coastal areas to try open shelled sea food. The Markings are likely, done to legalize the ivory and made to identify a Native craftsman. I think the artifacts are interesting as well. Steve Last edited by archer; 24th June 2011 at 09:13 PM.

15th June 2011, 01:06 PM	#2
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	European sailor?

15th June 2011, 02:17 PM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Freddy, my initial thoughts are that it is, perhaps, North African. The sheath is typical, similar to the Bou Saddi types. The blade looks very similar to the Fairbairn Sykes commando dagger ...issued during WW2 , so could be a rehilted/reworked blade or a native copy.Bearing in mind the conflict in North Africa during WW2 involving the British, it seems likely such daggers could be acquired by the locals. The handle looks to be bone with resin used to secure the tang. Looking again at the blade.....could it be a re-worked file ? Kind Regards David

15th June 2011, 06:17 PM	#4
ericlaude Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 187	Hi Freddy, I aggree with katana, for my opinion, it's an Algerian Bou Saadi freestyle, maked with a French or english military blade. The scabbard is typical Bou Saadi style.

15th June 2011, 08:04 PM	#5
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	The scabbard does resemble those, but aren't they sewn up the back edge rather than the spine? Also, the suspension strap is missing; is there a broken end of leather strap sticking out around the throat of the scabbard? Also, there is usually, If you're talking about what I think you're talking about (kodme), usually a hole that runs all the way thru the handle, thru which is passed a string of leather that heps keep the knife in the sheath (ie. a detente). Is the dot we see such a hole? It seems on the small side.

15th June 2011, 08:06 PM	#6
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	also, the securing of the tang with molten lead is something often seen on folk-level, nonprofessional European and N American work. The Berbers usually try to roll with a flat tang on the kodmes etc.

17th June 2011, 08:17 PM	#8
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	IMHO the flattened, double-edged blade appears distinctly European or American, though the scabbard does appear Bou Saddi in style (at least with regards to its general shape). Definitely wouldn't be the first hybrid marriage of imported blade and local hilt in the region.

18th June 2011, 03:55 AM	#9
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I think that's a scar from vice jaws at the base of the blade.

18th June 2011, 12:55 PM	#10
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	again, is that a hole that passes through the grip?

20th June 2011, 09:36 PM	#11
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	No, Tom. There's no hole in the handle. I can add that the handle is very heavy.

23rd June 2011, 02:47 PM	#14
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	The whale's tooth box has on it a counting board of some kind; perhaps to do with gaming. How large is it? Might it be a box for some kind of gambling etc. devices such as dice, etc.? Supposedly the Northern peoples gamble a lot in the winter (not that summer stops the rest of us ) Cool box.

23rd June 2011, 07:08 PM	#15
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	The plot thickens. Looks like you might have found quite an interesting knife. What do you make of the leather? is it sewn with sinew?

23rd June 2011, 09:44 PM	#16
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,779	The mask is great! A very rare object so far I know. Regards, Detlef

24th June 2011, 07:06 PM	#19
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	In town at the British Museum looking at the American Arctic and Danish too, dont forget. This knife is a little bit longer but is in common form fashioned from trade iron goods. When ever I go into town this rather sweat elderly lady always seems to get in the way of my snaps? Attached Images

25th June 2011, 02:23 AM	#20
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	The pic's a bit fuzzy, but it still looks like sail thread. The other tooth looks like a whale tooth, too? The other knife looks a bit like a puuko/leuko.