Yari

kronckew · 25th February 2015, 09:39 AM

picked up this yari head via ebay last night a lot cheaper than i expected. it is shown in the picture on a three foot dowel of the wrong size. after earlier conversations with the vendor, i learned it was not tanged like most but socketed, which was as far as i know a bit unusual (?). anyway, i will order a 2 meter pole for it when i measure the socket & black lacquer it, etc.

i seem to remember that naganata and yari hafts had a flat area near the grip to aid in edge alignment, i would assume vertically for the nags and horizontal for yaris?

thanks in advance for any info, these are somewhat outside my past area of knowledge.

estcrh · 25th February 2015, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

picked up this yari head via ebay last night a lot cheaper than i expected. it is shown in the picture on a three foot dowel of the wrong size. after earlier conversations with the vendor, i learned it was not tanged like most but socketed, which was as far as i know a bit unusual (?).

A yari with a socket instead of a tang is called "fukuro yari", they are not that unusual, if you do a search using that term you will find other examples.

kronckew · 25th February 2015, 06:43 PM

thanks. i'm a bit relieved. however real or repro, i'll love it and pet it and hug it and squeeze it and name it george*... i am a happy monster.

especially if it has a temper line

i got the bunny rabbit, not the duck

David R · 25th February 2015, 07:15 PM

Apparently the Satsuma Clan had a liking for Fukuro Yari because they were easier to re-shaft than the tanged type.
According to one of the curators at Leeds Royal Armoury a batch were also made for the Shogunate Army during the Bakamatsu period, ie the period when Japan's isolation was ending.

kronckew · 25th February 2015, 07:48 PM

i'll look for a broad arrow

i will give it a bath in orange juice in honour of the clan.

Timo Nieminen · 26th February 2015, 01:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

i seem to remember that naganata and yari hafts had a flat area near the grip to aid in edge alignment, i would assume vertically for the nags and horizontal for yaris

Naginata hafts were oval-section, not round. That gives the edge alignment (also stronger with less weight in the direction needed when a cut hits something more solid than expected).

I don't know how common flat areas were/are on yari hafts. I've seen hafts without such, even for yari you might care about blade alignment with. (Equilateral triangular section and square section yari might as well have round hafts; you won't care about blade alignment. Also often cavalry lances, so the "usual" flat area near the butt won't be near the hand.)

estcrh · 26th February 2015, 05:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timo Nieminen

Naginata hafts were oval-section, not round. That gives the edge alignment (also stronger with less weight in the direction needed when a cut hits something more solid than expected).

I don't know how common flat areas were/are on yari hafts. I've seen hafts without such, even for yari you might care about blade alignment with. (Equilateral triangular section and square section yari might as well have round hafts; you won't care about blade alignment. Also often cavalry lances, so the "usual" flat area near the butt won't be near the hand.)

The kikuchi yari I have seen were mounted on a round half, if any yari were to have been mounted on an oval haft you would expect it to have been kikuchi yari since that have a flat knife like blade.

Timo Nieminen · 26th February 2015, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

The kikuchi yari I have seen were mounted on a round half, if any yari were to have been mounted on an oval haft you would expect it to have been kikuchi yari since that have a flat knife like blade.

I don't know of any yari with oval hafts. Round, round with small ridge (Knutsen, "Japanese Polearms", calls this "pear shaped"), and polygonal.

The "flat area", I guess, refers to having one side (matching the flat of a flattened sankaku yari) of the round haft planed flat near the butt. Hanwei makes a point of this in their ad copy for their reproduction yari, and their yari indeed are so. However, their haft is also uniform in thickness, not tapered like typical yari hafts, so their hafts are not so representative of historical examples.

Is it correct to say that kikuchi yari are yari because they're mounted like yari, rather than being mounted like naginata (in which case, they'd be short straight naginata)?

kronckew · 26th February 2015, 10:05 AM

excellent info.

i'll try to find an appropriate tapered haft. like a long bo.

if i find a locally made one, it will of course be an english long bo.

estcrh · 27th February 2015, 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timo Nieminen

Is it correct to say that kikuchi yari are yari because they're mounted like yari, rather than being mounted like naginata (in which case, they'd be short straight naginata)?

Timo, here is what Ian Bottomley has to say about this very subject.

Quote:

Its strange but yari as such were not really popular until the late Muromachi / Momoyama. Kikuchi yari, probably named after te Kikuchi family who were big noises in Higo province, were however used before other types and you come across references during the Kamakura and probably the late Heian when the most popular staff weapon was the naginata. I've pondered on this and suggest that kikuchi yari are really a type of naginata that you can thrust with - in other words they are essentially naginata in general form but without the curve. Ian Bottomley

Timo Nieminen · 27th February 2015, 04:12 AM

To simplify, we could say that until mid-Heian, spears (hoko) were the most popular polearms, mid-Heian to early Muromachi naginata, and mid-Muromachi onwards, spears (yari). Possibly accompanied by changes in battle from close-order, to open-order, and back to close-order. It's a bit complicated, because
(a) "hoko" is also used to mean "polearm" in general, as well as a hoko spear,
(b) "naginata" is literally "long sword", 長刀, and might refer to long swords in literature. References to drawing naginata (rather than "removing") might mean sword, not polearm.

At the time when naginata appear to have been the most popular polearm, polearms weren't that popular (the Mongol Invasion Scrolls have a couple of naginata, but the dominant weapons are bow and tachi (as a sidearm). So perhaps it isn't a case of naginata replacing spears for a while, but rather that spears just stopped appearing on the battlefield, and the few naginata had no competition.

Also, Kamakura naginata appear to have been much straighter than late naginata, and should not be hard to thrust with effectively. Looks like the more curved naginata appear when the yari does - instead of a single cut/thrust polearm, we have more a division into specialised cutting and thrusting polearms.

Don't know what any of that means for kikuchi yari. I haven't seen a kukichi yari blade of more than tanto length, so they're not much like early naginata.

Here's an Edo period socketed kikuchi yari: http://www.e-sword.jp/sale/2013/1310_4035syousai.htm ; compare with fukuro naginata and you see a clear difference: this yari has a round socket, and fukuro naginata have oval sockets.

(Karl Friday says the difference between hoko and yari (other than sockets vs tangs) is that hoko have grippy hafts (spiral wrapped, not smooth) while yari have smooth hafts. You pool-cue thrust with a yari, not with a hoko. See "Samurai, Warfare and the State", and http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthre...ting-technique for his comments.)

kronckew · 27th February 2015, 05:44 PM

the yari head arrived late this afternoon.

232 grams, 23.5 cm. long over all, 11 cm blade of equilateral triangle cross section. the last 1.5 cm. tapers more abruptly to the sharp point.

there is a 6 cm. x 2mm. fuller on each flat, with a red inlay (lacquer?

the OD of the socket base is 2.5 cm. there is a 3mm. hole in the socket 5.5 cm. from the base in line with one edge and on the centreline of the opposite flat. some black rust, small pitted areas on two flats. some sign of stoning on a short section near the base of one flat. all rust is black, not red.

edges are sharp, but not tomato slicing sharp. the edge is perfectly straight from base to point including the truncated section. (armour piercing?)

no signature marks i can see. it came with a short piece of what looks like a red oak bo stuck in the socket, but not far enough to reach the securing pin hole.

as a surprise, the point and the bo tip came in a nice japanese wooden plain un-lacquered box that looks very old and stained. there is calligraphy on the box lid and one character on the inner surface of the lid with a red chop mark. the ends of the box have semi-circular cradles for the point & short wood section. the wood box joints are all perfect. i initially couldn't see where the box came apart. wyou can't tell where the joins are by feel. made by a darn good box master. heck, the box is probably worth more than i paid for the point. the point is worth a heck of a lot more than i paid, i'm fairly certain.

estcrh · 27th February 2015, 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

as a surprise, the point and the bo tip came in a nice japanese wooden plain un-lacquered box that looks very old and stained. there is calligraphy on the box lid and one character on the inner surface of the lid with a red chop mark. the ends of the box have semi-circular cradles for the point & short wood section. the wood box joints are all perfect. i initially couldn't see where the box came apart. wyou can't tell where the joins are by feel. made by a darn good box master. heck, the box is probably worth more than i paid for the point. the point is worth a heck of a lot more than i paid, i'm fairly certain.

It is a Japanese scroll box, they are quite good for storage, I have a couple that I store tanto and yari in.

https://www.google.com/search?q=japa...w=1278&bih=635

kronckew · 28th February 2015, 12:01 AM

cool.

wonder what scroll was stored in it. might have to post it on my facescroll timeline.

kronckew · 6th March 2015, 06:00 AM

have found a 2.4 metre unfinished ash 1 in. dia straight pole for the haft & an original 'shoe' for the butt which is wending it's way from japan. i think i will cut the pole a bit shorter to a. fit in my living room w/o hitting the ceiling and b. to make it more manageable.

i gather the ashigara used longer ones like pikes in formation, and the higher ranked samurai would use more manageable lengths from 6 ft. or so on up. i thought 7 ft. a good compromise. will finish the pole black.

kronckew · 21st March 2015, 09:28 AM

stumbled on a used traditional yari scabbard/cover that looks like it will fit. edo period (19c). on its way from japan. when it arrives, it'll be time to assemble the components.

Gehazi · 21st March 2015, 01:32 PM

love watching this, thanks for sharing -- beautiful artifacts!

David R · 21st March 2015, 03:41 PM

Looks like it is coming together nicely. The Yari I bought a while ago is in a hiatus as I have been favouring other projects, but I am considering doing it up as a Makura-yari or a Te-yari.

25th February 2015, 09:39 AM	#1
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,181	Yari picked up this yari head via ebay last night a lot cheaper than i expected. it is shown in the picture on a three foot dowel of the wrong size. after earlier conversations with the vendor, i learned it was not tanged like most but socketed, which was as far as i know a bit unusual (?). anyway, i will order a 2 meter pole for it when i measure the socket & black lacquer it, etc. i seem to remember that naganata and yari hafts had a flat area near the grip to aid in edge alignment, i would assume vertically for the nags and horizontal for yaris? thanks in advance for any info, these are somewhat outside my past area of knowledge. Attached Images

25th February 2015, 06:43 PM	#3
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,181	thanks. i'm a bit relieved. however real or repro, i'll love it and pet it and hug it and squeeze it and name it george... i am a happy monster. especially if it has a temper line i got the bunny rabbit, not the duck Last edited by kronckew; 25th February 2015 at 06:53 PM.*

27th February 2015, 05:44 PM	#12
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,181	the yari head arrived late this afternoon. 232 grams, 23.5 cm. long over all, 11 cm blade of equilateral triangle cross section. the last 1.5 cm. tapers more abruptly to the sharp point. there is a 6 cm. x 2mm. fuller on each flat, with a red inlay (lacquer? the OD of the socket base is 2.5 cm. there is a 3mm. hole in the socket 5.5 cm. from the base in line with one edge and on the centreline of the opposite flat. some black rust, small pitted areas on two flats. some sign of stoning on a short section near the base of one flat. all rust is black, not red. edges are sharp, but not tomato slicing sharp. the edge is perfectly straight from base to point including the truncated section. (armour piercing?) no signature marks i can see. it came with a short piece of what looks like a red oak bo stuck in the socket, but not far enough to reach the securing pin hole. as a surprise, the point and the bo tip came in a nice japanese wooden plain un-lacquered box that looks very old and stained. there is calligraphy on the box lid and one character on the inner surface of the lid with a red chop mark. the ends of the box have semi-circular cradles for the point & short wood section. the wood box joints are all perfect. i initially couldn't see where the box came apart. wyou can't tell where the joins are by feel. made by a darn good box master. heck, the box is probably worth more than i paid for the point. the point is worth a heck of a lot more than i paid, i'm fairly certain. Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 27th February 2015 at 05:56 PM.

6th March 2015, 06:00 AM	#15
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,181	have found a 2.4 metre unfinished ash 1 in. dia straight pole for the haft & an original 'shoe' for the butt which is wending it's way from japan. i think i will cut the pole a bit shorter to a. fit in my living room w/o hitting the ceiling and b. to make it more manageable. i gather the ashigara used longer ones like pikes in formation, and the higher ranked samurai would use more manageable lengths from 6 ft. or so on up. i thought 7 ft. a good compromise. will finish the pole black. Attached Images

21st March 2015, 09:28 AM	#16
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,181	stumbled on a used traditional yari scabbard/cover that looks like it will fit. edo period (19c). on its way from japan. when it arrives, it'll be time to assemble the components. Attached Images

25th February 2015, 07:15 PM	#4
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	Apparently the Satsuma Clan had a liking for Fukuro Yari because they were easier to re-shaft than the tanged type. According to one of the curators at Leeds Royal Armoury a batch were also made for the Shogunate Army during the Bakamatsu period, ie the period when Japan's isolation was ending.

25th February 2015, 07:48 PM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,181	i'll look for a broad arrow i will give it a bath in orange juice in honour of the clan.

26th February 2015, 10:05 AM	#9
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,181	excellent info. i'll try to find an appropriate tapered haft. like a long bo. if i find a locally made one, it will of course be an english long bo.

27th February 2015, 04:12 AM	#11
Timo Nieminen Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 422	To simplify, we could say that until mid-Heian, spears (hoko) were the most popular polearms, mid-Heian to early Muromachi naginata, and mid-Muromachi onwards, spears (yari). Possibly accompanied by changes in battle from close-order, to open-order, and back to close-order. It's a bit complicated, because (a) "hoko" is also used to mean "polearm" in general, as well as a hoko spear, (b) "naginata" is literally "long sword", 長刀, and might refer to long swords in literature. References to drawing naginata (rather than "removing") might mean sword, not polearm. At the time when naginata appear to have been the most popular polearm, polearms weren't that popular (the Mongol Invasion Scrolls have a couple of naginata, but the dominant weapons are bow and tachi (as a sidearm). So perhaps it isn't a case of naginata replacing spears for a while, but rather that spears just stopped appearing on the battlefield, and the few naginata had no competition. Also, Kamakura naginata appear to have been much straighter than late naginata, and should not be hard to thrust with effectively. Looks like the more curved naginata appear when the yari does - instead of a single cut/thrust polearm, we have more a division into specialised cutting and thrusting polearms. Don't know what any of that means for kikuchi yari. I haven't seen a kukichi yari blade of more than tanto length, so they're not much like early naginata. Here's an Edo period socketed kikuchi yari: http://www.e-sword.jp/sale/2013/1310_4035syousai.htm ; compare with fukuro naginata and you see a clear difference: this yari has a round socket, and fukuro naginata have oval sockets. (Karl Friday says the difference between hoko and yari (other than sockets vs tangs) is that hoko have grippy hafts (spiral wrapped, not smooth) while yari have smooth hafts. You pool-cue thrust with a yari, not with a hoko. See "Samurai, Warfare and the State", and http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthre...ting-technique for his comments.)

28th February 2015, 12:01 AM	#14
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,181	cool. wonder what scroll was stored in it. might have to post it on my facescroll timeline.

21st March 2015, 01:32 PM	#17
Gehazi Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: TN, USA Posts: 21	love watching this, thanks for sharing -- beautiful artifacts!

21st March 2015, 03:41 PM	#18
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	Looks like it is coming together nicely. The Yari I bought a while ago is in a hiatus as I have been favouring other projects, but I am considering doing it up as a Makura-yari or a Te-yari.