Shiavona mark for id.

Cerjak · 1st November 2016, 12:27 PM

I ‘ve alrady seen a similar crowned helmet mark in the forum but I can’t find it again
O.L. 101.5 cm ; blade L. 86.5 cm; blade width at hilt 4.2 cm
Hilt of type 1
I guess it could be an early 17TH C sword ?
Any comment on it would be welcome.
Best
Cerjak

fernando · 1st November 2016, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cerjak

I ‘ve alrady seen a similar crowned helmet mark in the forum but I can’t find it again
O.L. 101.5 cm ; blade L. 86.5 cm; blade width at hilt 4.2 cm
Hilt of type 1
I guess it could be an early 17TH C sword ?
Any comment on it would be welcome.
Best
Cerjak

Beautiful sword, Jean-Luc. Others will know better but, i would agree with the early XVII century assessment for the guard. Later ones would have a more complex structure. Let's see if someone here recognizes the Kings head on the blade.

Jim McDougall · 5th November 2016, 02:57 PM

Hard to find exact match, but the 'kings head' (konigskopf) is basically one of the variations of the Wundes family of Solingen smiths.

corrado26 · 5th November 2016, 06:20 PM

This type of "King's Head" is reported for Johanne Wundes , 1560 to 1610.
Regards
corrado26

Cerjak · 5th November 2016, 08:24 PM

Dear Jim and Corrado
thank you for your answer.
I have found other examples with "King's Head"
Best

Cerjak

Philip · 19th November 2016, 08:35 AM

Congratulations, Cerjak : a most interesting example of a schiavona. I agree with your early 17th cent. dating of this one. From my observations, your hilt has a noteworthy feature which seems to peg it as a "proto-type 2" , to use Ewart Oakeshott's classification.

Do you have Oakeshott's EUROPEAN WEAPONS AND ARMOUR FROM THE RENAISSANCE TO THE INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION (1980 edition)? Chapter 10 has a very detailed discussion of the history of the schiavona, whose hilt form is identified by 4 different variations, types 1, 2, 2a, 2b. Germane to this thread are the distinctions between 1 and 2. To make a long story short, types 1 and 2 are of totally different construction from each other (although to the uninitiated they probably look the same down to the distinctive "testa di gatto" pommels). It is seen in the arrangement of bars that make up the "basket" itself. Oakeshott traces type 1, the simplest form of the four, to mid-16th cent. Venetian antecedents. It has leaf-shaped bars, the lowest ones crossing at the bottom of the basket, the 3 main diagonals not joined by any struts. Yours does not follow this form.

Type 2 is more complex, with stylistic embellishments pointing to possible non-Italian origin. (added to the fact that examples of the same hilt style are encountered elsewhere in Europe but not in Venice). The lower bars do not cross in front, and instead of 3 unjoined diagonals there are two, connected by 4-5 short struts or bridge bars. Yours fits this mold quite well, except that the diagonals have only one strut, which is shaped to create a cardioform opening below. This single bridge leads me to believe that your hilt is a predecessor to the full-blown, mature version. A nice touch to any collection of these swords!

The likely Germanic origin of the blade meshes quite nicely with Oakeshott's assessment of the origin and development of the type 2 hilt.

Types 2a and 2b differ from 2 only in the number of diagonals joined by struts, and enough examples dating to the mid 18th cent. have Venetian provenance to lead scholars such as Oakeshott to believe that they are elaborated and Italianized type 2s.

Cerjak · 29th November 2016, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip

Congratulations, Cerjak : a most interesting example of a schiavona. I agree with your early 17th cent. dating of this one. From my observations, your hilt has a noteworthy feature which seems to peg it as a "proto-type 2" , to use Ewart Oakeshott's classification.

Do you have Oakeshott's EUROPEAN WEAPONS AND ARMOUR FROM THE RENAISSANCE TO THE INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION (1980 edition)? Chapter 10 has a very detailed discussion of the history of the schiavona, whose hilt form is identified by 4 different variations, types 1, 2, 2a, 2b. Germane to this thread are the distinctions between 1 and 2. To make a long story short, types 1 and 2 are of totally different construction from each other (although to the uninitiated they probably look the same down to the distinctive "testa di gatto" pommels). It is seen in the arrangement of bars that make up the "basket" itself. Oakeshott traces type 1, the simplest form of the four, to mid-16th cent. Venetian antecedents. It has leaf-shaped bars, the lowest ones crossing at the bottom of the basket, the 3 main diagonals not joined by any struts. Yours does not follow this form.

Type 2 is more complex, with stylistic embellishments pointing to possible non-Italian origin. (added to the fact that examples of the same hilt style are encountered elsewhere in Europe but not in Venice). The lower bars do not cross in front, and instead of 3 unjoined diagonals there are two, connected by 4-5 short struts or bridge bars. Yours fits this mold quite well, except that the diagonals have only one strut, which is shaped to create a cardioform opening below. This single bridge leads me to believe that your hilt is a predecessor to the full-blown, mature version. A nice touch to any collection of these swords!

The likely Germanic origin of the blade meshes quite nicely with Oakeshott's assessment of the origin and development of the type 2 hilt.

Types 2a and 2b differ from 2 only in the number of diagonals joined by struts, and enough examples dating to the mid 18th cent. have Venetian provenance to lead scholars such as Oakeshott to believe that they are elaborated and Italianized type 2s.

Dear Philip,
Yes I have most of the publications from Ewart Oakeshott and I have to say that I have forgot this book as Oakeshott’s work is more focused on medieval sword .
I would like to find more literature about the shiavona sword do you have a book to advise me ?
best
CERJAK

Philip · 29th November 2016, 08:00 PM

I have not yet found references with as much to say about the development of this family of swords as Oakeshott has. Not to say that something doesn't exist, it's just that I haven't encountered it yet but am still looking! Last year I was in Venezia and visited the armory, the museum bookstore had nothing on sale that was useful. I am on my way to Italy again to study some important collections in Firenze and Torino, if I succeed in finding some useful literature on Italian swords that is "new to the world" I will certainly let you know.

Jim McDougall · 30th November 2016, 02:32 AM

It seems to me that the paper written by Nathan Robinson on the 'My Armoury' site is very informative discussing the evolution of these schiavona . It seems that the style itself evolved from Hungarian swords with similar pommel and simple S guard, and eventually added bars with the trellis in Croatian areas.
"Cut and Thrust Weapons" by Eduard Wagner has some cursory detail and drawings.

1st November 2016, 12:27 PM	#1
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	Shiavona mark for id. I ‘ve alrady seen a similar crowned helmet mark in the forum but I can’t find it again O.L. 101.5 cm ; blade L. 86.5 cm; blade width at hilt 4.2 cm Hilt of type 1 I guess it could be an early 17TH C sword ? Any comment on it would be welcome. Best Cerjak Attached Images

5th November 2016, 06:20 PM	#4
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,204	This type of "King's Head" is reported for Johanne Wundes , 1560 to 1610. Regards corrado26 Attached Images

5th November 2016, 08:24 PM	#5
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	Dear Jim and Corrado thank you for your answer. I have found other examples with "King's Head" Best Cerjak Attached Images

19th November 2016, 08:35 AM	#6
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	let's not forget the hilt Congratulations, Cerjak : a most interesting example of a schiavona. I agree with your early 17th cent. dating of this one. From my observations, your hilt has a noteworthy feature which seems to peg it as a "proto-type 2" , to use Ewart Oakeshott's classification. Do you have Oakeshott's EUROPEAN WEAPONS AND ARMOUR FROM THE RENAISSANCE TO THE INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION (1980 edition)? Chapter 10 has a very detailed discussion of the history of the schiavona, whose hilt form is identified by 4 different variations, types 1, 2, 2a, 2b. Germane to this thread are the distinctions between 1 and 2. To make a long story short, types 1 and 2 are of totally different construction from each other (although to the uninitiated they probably look the same down to the distinctive "testa di gatto" pommels). It is seen in the arrangement of bars that make up the "basket" itself. Oakeshott traces type 1, the simplest form of the four, to mid-16th cent. Venetian antecedents. It has leaf-shaped bars, the lowest ones crossing at the bottom of the basket, the 3 main diagonals not joined by any struts. Yours does not follow this form. Type 2 is more complex, with stylistic embellishments pointing to possible non-Italian origin. (added to the fact that examples of the same hilt style are encountered elsewhere in Europe but not in Venice). The lower bars do not cross in front, and instead of 3 unjoined diagonals there are two, connected by 4-5 short struts or bridge bars. Yours fits this mold quite well, except that the diagonals have only one strut, which is shaped to create a cardioform opening below. This single bridge leads me to believe that your hilt is a predecessor to the full-blown, mature version. A nice touch to any collection of these swords! The likely Germanic origin of the blade meshes quite nicely with Oakeshott's assessment of the origin and development of the type 2 hilt. Types 2a and 2b differ from 2 only in the number of diagonals joined by struts, and enough examples dating to the mid 18th cent. have Venetian provenance to lead scholars such as Oakeshott to believe that they are elaborated and Italianized type 2s.

29th November 2016, 08:00 PM	#8
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	literature I have not yet found references with as much to say about the development of this family of swords as Oakeshott has. Not to say that something doesn't exist, it's just that I haven't encountered it yet but am still looking! Last year I was in Venezia and visited the armory, the museum bookstore had nothing on sale that was useful. I am on my way to Italy again to study some important collections in Firenze and Torino, if I succeed in finding some useful literature on Italian swords that is "new to the world" I will certainly let you know.

5th November 2016, 02:57 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Hard to find exact match, but the 'kings head' (konigskopf) is basically one of the variations of the Wundes family of Solingen smiths.

30th November 2016, 02:32 AM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	It seems to me that the paper written by Nathan Robinson on the 'My Armoury' site is very informative discussing the evolution of these schiavona . It seems that the style itself evolved from Hungarian swords with similar pommel and simple S guard, and eventually added bars with the trellis in Croatian areas. "Cut and Thrust Weapons" by Eduard Wagner has some cursory detail and drawings.