kurd/IndoPersian ?

Tim Simmons · 20th March 2005, 03:46 PM

Just aquired this morning,things like this are most often over my budget but this being plain might limit its appeal.Some of you are keen collectors of this area,can you tell me more about it.I had suspitions about the leather,after checking with an eye glass it seems okay.OA length 265mm, blade135mm,armour piercing part 9mm thick.Many thanks for any help Tim.

tom hyle · 20th March 2005, 04:09 PM

Interesting. Looks like a decent old blade. The lack of a sharply defined central line to the base of the blade may have struck some as a modern feature, but I'm not sure they'd be correct. In conjunction with the continual curve, rather than the more common 2 stage curve, I wonder if this is the tip from a larger blade.

Jens Nordlunde · 20th March 2005, 05:25 PM

Yes Tom, I got the same feeling, especially when looking at the second picture from the top. I also had another feeling - or wild guess if you will - that the blade could be from a katar.

tom hyle · 20th March 2005, 06:05 PM

It's got somewhat of that look; it's the curve that throws me, of course. The curved katars I've seen were the rivetted blade kind, and thus likely made from the remains of obsolete swords their own selves? Whereas the ones with the groove/panel base and the thickened point are usually of the integral/welded blade type? I'm probably speculating based on too few examples here; I definitely see what you mean about resembling a katar blade......if nothing else this may suggest regional origin.

Tim Simmons · 20th March 2005, 06:07 PM

I was sarting to think that,so I have looked again with my jewellers loop and the blade is forged from a reserve of metal rectangular in section with no sign of grinding.After the perusal of a few publications there is the distinct possiblity that it is Afghan/Indian where the metal pieces either side and riveted through the blade is a common form of construction and may help explain the deviation from a more classic or conventional form and also why I could afford it.Tim

Tim Simmons · 20th March 2005, 06:24 PM

Thanks fellows you were both so very close.I am impressed.Tim

Jens Nordlunde · 20th March 2005, 07:21 PM

I still think that something is wrong with the proportions. I you, in your imagination, makes the blade as long as the tang is, or maybe a bit longer, then I think the proportions will fit.

Tim Simmons · 20th March 2005, 07:36 PM

It may well have a reasonable length tang but I can not see that without taking it apart.All I can say is , it is most certainly up to the job and feels very comfortable in the hand.Tim

Tim Simmons · 22nd March 2005, 08:43 PM

I hope I am not labouring a point,but I like illustrate what I am discussing.These photos are not very good but the best I can manage.They show the filling of a cavity, giving evidence to a tang of some length and that the blade is not just attached

to a piece of wood.Tim

Tim Simmons · 12th September 2005, 09:54 PM

I have finally got a copy of Elgoods book Hindu Arms And Ritual if a triffle late, how very splendid it is. One thing it has brought to mind is what a good book Tirri published is, althought a little light on discussion, it does work as a general reference and gives most collectors the opportunity to say " I have one much better than that! " While on the subject of Elgood, now tell me the proportions and construction is " not right" Tim

Jens Nordlunde · 12th September 2005, 10:47 PM

Hi Tim,

Yes you are right ‘Hindu Arms and Ritual’ is a fantastic book; remember to read the notes as well.

The two daggers you compare with are different, and with different length of blades, as you dagger is quite another type you can’t compare them. Maybe your dagger was made like it is now, and maybe the blade was a bit longer from the start, we will never know – but it is a nice dagger all the same.

B.I · 14th September 2005, 11:10 PM

i do agree with jens' theory. the two daggers in elgoods book are of a specific type and both recurve. the blade in tims dagger is different. the two deccani daggers are similar in shape, and have a very slight armour piercing tip (hardly at all), and not thickened to the extent of tims. also, the hilt is not southern in form. this was typical of rthis style, and not inherant in just these two examples.
i think it is a re-used blade, and could possible be the shortened katar that jens mentioned. its a little odd that the fullers just start, although this could be misleading.

Tim Simmons · 14th September 2005, 11:24 PM

I am aware that the pictures are of different daggers. I was trying to illustrate that knives and knife dimensions do not follow a strict rule book and would vary according to the competance of the many manufacturers and wealth of thier customers. Even in Elgoods book which is only highlighting some of the best production the variation of similar fullered knives is a good many. With these weapons to assume one type is the law is a little simplistic. We are not talking bayonets for a 303. Tim

B.I · 14th September 2005, 11:37 PM

i think both jens and i took your posting of these two daggers as a comparative point, of which it seems we were wrong.
i think that in indian arms, sometimes all we have is comparative specualtion and so we have to look for a symplistic way of 'categorising pieces, otherwise these discussion would be pretty short.
the point i was trying to make is that your dagger could have possibly made from an older katar (or something similar) as the blade from is one i have seen in curved katars. indian pieces do have a certain progressive form which, although loose, allows us to push specualtion a little further. this was the point robert was making in his book, when he pulled together a 'type' in order to emphasise that this could be done, instead of just re-showing the same old 'wallace collection' indian arms.
still not sure which type your dagger fits into, so maybe the way forward is to list the 'types' that it doesnt conform to.

Tim Simmons · 14th September 2005, 11:50 PM

I would also like to point out that the fullers on this dagger do not come from within the handle. The knife has a base which the bolster pieces are riveted to.It is outside of this on the blade that the fullers are forged and I can only assume the tang is similar to the dagger with the tang showing from Elgoods book. I am making a bit of a fuss but it is all to easy to brush things aside. Tim

B.I · 15th September 2005, 12:00 AM

tim, the advantage will always be yours as you have the piece in your hands. i can only go by the images you post, and give my opinion accordingly.
i try not to brush things aside and the core of my opinion is based on the fact that the two pieces (hilt and blade) do not seem to sit well together. i can only go by gut feeling and personal experience. if i held the dagger, my overall opinion could be completely different.
the tang on elgoods dagger is assumed to have been as thin due to the missing hilt being originally of stone (whether jade or possibly rock chrystal). this wasnt a common feature in these daggers.

Jens Nordlunde · 17th September 2005, 05:18 PM

Tim, why don’t you take the dagger to a vet?
No I am not joking, I mean it. Many vets have x-ray machines big enough to x-ray a dagger or a hilt, and they will be easier to convince to take a picture, than if you take it to a private hospital – cheaper too I am sure.
I am not convinced that it was made like that originally, but like BI says, you have the advantage as you have the dagger, and we only have photographs. Is it possible for you to take photos which can/will convince me?

Tim Simmons · 17th September 2005, 06:38 PM

A very good idea I shall call the vets in the week. I hope they will oblige, I do take three dogs there from time to time. Fingers crossed. Tim

Tim Simmons · 28th September 2005, 06:53 PM

I made enquiries at the vet as to an x-ray. The cost was £36+tax which is high relitive to the value of the knife when you are not rolling in it

. The staff were also a little unsure as the head honcho was out. If things pick up, whatch this space. Tim

Jens Nordlunde · 28th September 2005, 08:45 PM

May be you are right Tim, but I think you should value it more to the knowledge, than to what you paied for the dagger.

Tim Simmons · 29th September 2005, 07:26 PM

Yes Jens, it is not over yet

. Tim

Tim Simmons · 19th December 2005, 09:48 PM

This has recently finished on ebay. It is just a little similar in style. Tim

Jens Nordlunde · 19th December 2005, 10:43 PM

Hi Tim,
Did you get the X-rays of your dagger?

Jens

Lew · 19th December 2005, 10:59 PM

Tim

I think its a neat little dagger and if you just can't stand looking at it any more well enough of that

You should try doing a light etch on the blade my guess is that it's wootz

Lew

Tim Simmons · 20th June 2010, 10:30 PM

I have just found this to add. I got rid of the item that I started the thread with, just feel I took, not the best opinion?

http://www.jfsantiquearms.com/edged_weapons/6.html

20th March 2005, 03:46 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	kurd/IndoPersian ? Just aquired this morning,things like this are most often over my budget but this being plain might limit its appeal.Some of you are keen collectors of this area,can you tell me more about it.I had suspitions about the leather,after checking with an eye glass it seems okay.OA length 265mm, blade135mm,armour piercing part 9mm thick.Many thanks for any help Tim. Attached Images

22nd March 2005, 08:43 PM	#9
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I hope I am not labouring a point,but I like illustrate what I am discussing.These photos are not very good but the best I can manage.They show the filling of a cavity, giving evidence to a tang of some length and that the blade is not just attached to a piece of wood.Tim Attached Images

12th September 2005, 09:54 PM	#10
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I have finally got a copy of Elgoods book Hindu Arms And Ritual if a triffle late, how very splendid it is. One thing it has brought to mind is what a good book Tirri published is, althought a little light on discussion, it does work as a general reference and gives most collectors the opportunity to say " I have one much better than that! " While on the subject of Elgood, now tell me the proportions and construction is " not right" Tim Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 12th September 2005 at 10:07 PM.

28th September 2005, 06:53 PM	#19
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	vets I made enquiries at the vet as to an x-ray. The cost was £36+tax which is high relitive to the value of the knife when you are not rolling in it . The staff were also a little unsure as the head honcho was out. If things pick up, whatch this space. Tim Last edited by Tim Simmons; 28th September 2005 at 07:31 PM.

19th December 2005, 09:48 PM	#22
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	This has recently finished on ebay. It is just a little similar in style. Tim Attached Images

20th March 2005, 04:09 PM	#2
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Interesting. Looks like a decent old blade. The lack of a sharply defined central line to the base of the blade may have struck some as a modern feature, but I'm not sure they'd be correct. In conjunction with the continual curve, rather than the more common 2 stage curve, I wonder if this is the tip from a larger blade.

20th March 2005, 05:25 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Yes Tom, I got the same feeling, especially when looking at the second picture from the top. I also had another feeling - or wild guess if you will - that the blade could be from a katar.

20th March 2005, 06:05 PM	#4
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	It's got somewhat of that look; it's the curve that throws me, of course. The curved katars I've seen were the rivetted blade kind, and thus likely made from the remains of obsolete swords their own selves? Whereas the ones with the groove/panel base and the thickened point are usually of the integral/welded blade type? I'm probably speculating based on too few examples here; I definitely see what you mean about resembling a katar blade......if nothing else this may suggest regional origin.

20th March 2005, 06:07 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I was sarting to think that,so I have looked again with my jewellers loop and the blade is forged from a reserve of metal rectangular in section with no sign of grinding.After the perusal of a few publications there is the distinct possiblity that it is Afghan/Indian where the metal pieces either side and riveted through the blade is a common form of construction and may help explain the deviation from a more classic or conventional form and also why I could afford it.Tim

20th March 2005, 06:24 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Thanks fellows you were both so very close.I am impressed.Tim

20th March 2005, 07:21 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I still think that something is wrong with the proportions. I you, in your imagination, makes the blade as long as the tang is, or maybe a bit longer, then I think the proportions will fit.

20th March 2005, 07:36 PM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	It may well have a reasonable length tang but I can not see that without taking it apart.All I can say is , it is most certainly up to the job and feels very comfortable in the hand.Tim

12th September 2005, 10:47 PM	#11
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Tim, Yes you are right ‘Hindu Arms and Ritual’ is a fantastic book; remember to read the notes as well. The two daggers you compare with are different, and with different length of blades, as you dagger is quite another type you can’t compare them. Maybe your dagger was made like it is now, and maybe the blade was a bit longer from the start, we will never know – but it is a nice dagger all the same.

14th September 2005, 11:10 PM	#12
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	i do agree with jens' theory. the two daggers in elgoods book are of a specific type and both recurve. the blade in tims dagger is different. the two deccani daggers are similar in shape, and have a very slight armour piercing tip (hardly at all), and not thickened to the extent of tims. also, the hilt is not southern in form. this was typical of rthis style, and not inherant in just these two examples. i think it is a re-used blade, and could possible be the shortened katar that jens mentioned. its a little odd that the fullers just start, although this could be misleading.

14th September 2005, 11:24 PM	#13
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I am aware that the pictures are of different daggers. I was trying to illustrate that knives and knife dimensions do not follow a strict rule book and would vary according to the competance of the many manufacturers and wealth of thier customers. Even in Elgoods book which is only highlighting some of the best production the variation of similar fullered knives is a good many. With these weapons to assume one type is the law is a little simplistic. We are not talking bayonets for a 303. Tim

14th September 2005, 11:37 PM	#14
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	i think both jens and i took your posting of these two daggers as a comparative point, of which it seems we were wrong. i think that in indian arms, sometimes all we have is comparative specualtion and so we have to look for a symplistic way of 'categorising pieces, otherwise these discussion would be pretty short. the point i was trying to make is that your dagger could have possibly made from an older katar (or something similar) as the blade from is one i have seen in curved katars. indian pieces do have a certain progressive form which, although loose, allows us to push specualtion a little further. this was the point robert was making in his book, when he pulled together a 'type' in order to emphasise that this could be done, instead of just re-showing the same old 'wallace collection' indian arms. still not sure which type your dagger fits into, so maybe the way forward is to list the 'types' that it doesnt conform to.

14th September 2005, 11:50 PM	#15
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I would also like to point out that the fullers on this dagger do not come from within the handle. The knife has a base which the bolster pieces are riveted to.It is outside of this on the blade that the fullers are forged and I can only assume the tang is similar to the dagger with the tang showing from Elgoods book. I am making a bit of a fuss but it is all to easy to brush things aside. Tim

15th September 2005, 12:00 AM	#16
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	tim, the advantage will always be yours as you have the piece in your hands. i can only go by the images you post, and give my opinion accordingly. i try not to brush things aside and the core of my opinion is based on the fact that the two pieces (hilt and blade) do not seem to sit well together. i can only go by gut feeling and personal experience. if i held the dagger, my overall opinion could be completely different. the tang on elgoods dagger is assumed to have been as thin due to the missing hilt being originally of stone (whether jade or possibly rock chrystal). this wasnt a common feature in these daggers.

17th September 2005, 05:18 PM	#17
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Tim, why don’t you take the dagger to a vet? No I am not joking, I mean it. Many vets have x-ray machines big enough to x-ray a dagger or a hilt, and they will be easier to convince to take a picture, than if you take it to a private hospital – cheaper too I am sure. I am not convinced that it was made like that originally, but like BI says, you have the advantage as you have the dagger, and we only have photographs. Is it possible for you to take photos which can/will convince me?

17th September 2005, 06:38 PM	#18
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	A very good idea I shall call the vets in the week. I hope they will oblige, I do take three dogs there from time to time. Fingers crossed. Tim

28th September 2005, 08:45 PM	#20
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	May be you are right Tim, but I think you should value it more to the knowledge, than to what you paied for the dagger.

29th September 2005, 07:26 PM	#21
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Yes Jens, it is not over yet . Tim

19th December 2005, 10:43 PM	#23
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Tim, Did you get the X-rays of your dagger? Jens

19th December 2005, 10:59 PM	#24
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Tim I think its a neat little dagger and if you just can't stand looking at it any more well enough of that You should try doing a light etch on the blade my guess is that it's wootz Lew

20th June 2010, 10:30 PM	#25
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I have just found this to add. I got rid of the item that I started the thread with, just feel I took, not the best opinion? http://www.jfsantiquearms.com/edged_weapons/6.html Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 21st June 2010 at 10:18 PM.