filled wholes on indian sword blades

[dralin23]

hi all,
can someone tell me something more over the reason from gild ore brass filled wholes at indian swords. at my last khanda sword i found such an filled whole and today i looked at the web site from oriental arms and there is also an khanda with exactly the same sign.( you can see also such brass dots at the cover from eggertons book at an khandablade) i know there are in the past time some discussions over the reson from wholes in the blade if it is an talismanic sign ore an indicat for the quality from the blade. there are also the opinion if it is only an filled ( nail) whole. i don´t believe that it is an whole from an nail what was only fille dwith brass ore an other soft metall. i hope some one from the forum members know more over these things.

[josh stout]

Copper and brass inserts are common throughout South Asia, Southeast Asia, and China. You should take a look at old posts on the topic. There are many of discussions, but not too many answers other than they are nice decoration.

Sometimes they have symbolic meanings, and sometimes they don't.
Josh

[Jim McDougall]

It is hard to imagine any type of inlay or deliberate mark or feature not having some symbolic meaning on an Indian weapon when a simple dot such as this rather than decorative theme. It seemed the best resource would be "Hindu Arms & Ritual" by Elgood, and found this concerning wootz and laminanted core blades; "...lines running along the back of the blade are sometimes visible, marking the junction of the metal billets" (p.202).

Clearly this is not the case here, however it suggests the importance of inlaid metals which "...highlight areas of significance" (op.cit.p.196)

There is discussion of the inlaid gold umbrella signifying kingship, another example of the importance of inlaid metal.

It seems that in China, there were inlaid dots representing the seven stars on a number of blades. In Borneo, the 'mandau' often has holes drilled out and are filled in with brass if I recall correctly. I believe that led to the popular theory of a tally for heads taken or to that effect.

I would consider that the filled holes were intended to either signify the quality of the blade as suggested with filled lines noted above or possibly auspicious placement of metal to offset negative implications of iron in Hindu theology.

[dralin23]

hi all...,
thank you josh and jim for your comment. i was also searching in the web, then it is very intresting to find some more informations over "my" swords. i would like understand as much as possible from their history. i found also in the sfi an long thread over these things. some posts in these thread was also from you, josh.
i think like you jim, we can´t say that in the asian culture the reason of decoration from the blades with filled dots as usual is the same. asian is an grat culture with many different cultures and different histories. the background from the seven stars in chinese blades is different to the filled dots in the mandau swords ore also to the indian swords. i know there was many intresting storys at the market but nothing is sure. i think it is possible that the quality is testified with with marking. i missed the opinion from indian specialist( collectors) in this forum. im sure in india lived some peoples who know much over swords, theire making, and also from theire history.

[Jim McDougall]

While this may not be directly relevant to an Indian khanda of 17th or 18th century, it seems that a reference I happened upon is worthy of note. In "The Sword in Anglo Saxon England" (H.R.Ellis Davidson, 1962, p.115) there is reference describing the Al Kindi writing on swords, and referring to the pattern welded Frankish swords of the 9th century and later. It is noted that when the treatment of the blade is completed, some of the blades are marked in the upper part with moons or crosses of bronze or gold.....and sometimes a nail of bronze or gold is hammered into a hole in the blade.

This translated reference in the Ellis Davidson book is from a 1936 work by A. Zeki Velidi, being taken, as noted, from Al Kindi.

Perhaps this very early practice, which seems to have had some sort of quality or talismanic properties, could possibly have reached swordsmiths in India. It has already been established that filled holes in blades is found in a number of regions over considerable periods of time.

While we can only speculate on what this practice might mean, or if there is any connections in it between these varying cultures and over time, it did seem worthy of note here.

All best regards,
Jim

[Lee]

I have noticed these holes in a number of Indian blades, usually broad straight blades in Hindu-style basket hilts (which have no tang, being secured by plates over the forte of the blade). The holes are often filled with inconspicuous iron and I have found that they are often in a position suggesting that the blade has been remounted and that these are a residual artifact of the rivet which had secured the replaced mount. Sometimes there are two or more such defects and they are often close and or irregularly spaced. Some of these blades have appeared to be of an age that likely would have known multiple sets of mounts, while in others I have had the suspicion the filled hole came with a new sword in imitation of older blades or to suggest it was an heirloom.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Lee, you have a very good point, as some of the better blades were used more than once.
I love the silver decoration you show, is it a Deccan basket hilt?
Jens

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Lee

I have noticed these holes in a number of Indian blades, usually broad straight blades in Hindu-style basket hilts (which have no tang, being secured by plates over the forte of the blade). The holes are often filled with inconspicuous iron and I have found that they are often in a position suggesting that the blade has been remounted and that these are a residual artifact of the rivet which had secured the replaced mount. Sometimes there are two or more such defects and they are often close and or irregularly spaced. Some of these blades have appeared to be of an age that likely would have known multiple sets of mounts, while in others I have had the suspicion the filled hole came with a new sword in imitation of older blades or to suggest it was an heirloom.

Very well made point Lee! The heirloom idea seems quite plausible, and I have often wondered how many vestigial, apparantly non purpose features have been deliberately placed on blades to suggest vintage.
You know me, I always go for the esoteric!
All the best,
Jim

[rand]

Was looking at Shah Jahans dagger after recently reading this thread on holes in swords and found thes when taking a close look.
Shah Jahan 1628-1657
Dagger dates 1629-1630 AD

rand

[Richard Furrer]

Hello All,
This may not be exactly what is discussed here, but it does involve a rivet on a blade...

I have seen rivets holding on a portion of wootz near the spine which had broken off due to the seam on the spine causing a weakness (the seam or dark line on the spine of some wootz blades being the top of the ingot which can fold over during forging or may contain poor metals from the melt)...the rivet was also wootz...

Also do not discount the idea that a contrasting metal, filework, fullers or even a carving (horimono on Japanese blades) were used to hide a flaw in the steel...a poor weld or inclusion or a crack from hardening etc.

Ric

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Richard Furrer

Hello All,
This may not be exactly what is discussed here, but it does involve a rivet on a blade...

I have seen rivets holding on a portion of wootz near the spine which had broken off due to the seam on the spine causing a weakness (the seam or dark line on the spine of some wootz blades being the top of the ingot which can fold over during forging or may contain poor metals from the melt)...the rivet was also wootz...

Also do not discount the idea that a contrasting metal, filework, fullers or even a carving (horimono on Japanese blades) were used to hide a flaw in the steel...a poor weld or inclusion or a crack from hardening etc.

Ric

Thank you so much for responding to this Ric. I was wondering if this practice might have had some structural application as you describe, but it seemed the holes and rivets were too strategically placed to correspond to something as presumably random as a structural flaw. I know next to zippety doo dah about metallurgy , so really wasnt sure if the idea was valid or not, so thanks for answering it.

All best regards,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

In other reading I found some other items I thought I would add here to those interested in this topic.

In Elgood's "Hindu Arms and Ritual" (p.265), it is noted that,"...before going off to war a husband would have his forehead marked with a 'tilak', a smear of sandal paste between the eyebrows. The same auspicious dot is placed on arms to be worshipped".

Given the aversion to iron/steel observed in Hindu religion, I wonder if a brass dot might somehow attend to these beliefs in auspicious placement on the blade in the manner of the sandal paste dot? It is known that the use of brass and copper on mounts on Hindu weapons were often intended to counter the negative forces of the iron in the blade.

In another note which may or may not apply to pierced dots in blades, while reading through notes from Briggs ("European Blades in Tuareg Swords and Daggers", JAAS, Vol.V, #2, 1965), he notes on p.80 that one takouba blade was pierced just above the rounded point and had the hole filled by a copper plug. It should be noted that Tuaregs also maintained superstitious aversion to iron, which is why hilts are leather covered as well as some forms are brass covered on guard.
Also he notes that a 'southern' type takouba has a blade pierced near the middle of the blade with an open oval hole, and states "...I have no idea what the purpose and meaning, if any, of these mutilations by piercing can have been".

Our frustrations were clearly also experienced by this great scholar!!!

Best regards,
Jim

[Lee]

Below is a better photograph of the firangi showing the two holes filled with iron and three photographs of the hilt for Jens.