Of Saifs and Sossun Pata

[Gavin Nugent]

It has been on my mind for quite a while now, that a sword mentioned by Goetz as being a sword belonging to Emperor Akbar and having a Malaysian hilt may not be a Malaysian but an Early Saif prototype hilt.
If the age is correct it is a revelation.
If the cartouche is later than Akbar’s life and not one of ownership but reverence, further study could lead to this hilt being Indo Arabian.

The image of the hilt shown here in post number 11 isn't real clear in detail but is of the form typically seen on the Arabian Saif in the image below.
The blade too is mentioned by BI in post number 15 as being a Sossun Pata.

Picture the hilt with a cross guard of Arabian form in place.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...highlight=goetz

The stamps to the blade I have seen on some Arabian arms (still looking for the images) and as was pointed out in the above thread the stamps are long used.
Ariel has pointed out in the below thread that some of these sabre blades were Causcausian, not doubt copied locally too I am sure, along with the marks. I am not suggesting the "Akbar" sword blade is Caucasian.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4137

As Jim has pointed out the Somali Billao pommel is of a similar ilk, likely a result of Somalia's Arabian influences over the centuries...however it is interesting to note the ivory hilted Billaos with the silver spires only seen to have the central minaret type silver pommel, no side extrusions.

Thoughts on the subject?
Are better images of the Akbar sword or sword hilt available anywhere?

Akbar hilt from the thread mentioned
Saif hilt from Artzi's collection.

Gavin

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by freebooter

It has been on my mind for quite a while now, that a sword mentioned by Goetz as being a sword belonging to Emperor Akbar and having a Malaysian hilt may not be a Malaysian but an Early Saif prototype hilt.
If the age is correct it is a revelation.
If the cartouche is later than Akbar’s life and not one of ownership but reverence, further study could lead to this hilt being Indo Arabian.

The image of the hilt shown here in post number 11 isn't real clear in detail but is of the form typically seen on the Arabian Saif in the image below.
The blade too is mentioned by BI in post number 15 as being a Sossun Pata.

Picture the hilt with a cross guard of Arabian form in place.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...highlight=goetz

The stamps to the blade I have seen on some Arabian arms (still looking for the images) and as was pointed out in the above thread the stamps are long used.
Ariel has pointed out in the below thread that some of these sabre blades were Causcausian, not doubt copied locally too I am sure, along with the marks. I am not suggesting the "Akbar" sword blade is Caucasian.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4137

As Jim has pointed out the Somali Billao pommel is of a similar ilk, likely a result of Somalia's Arabian influences over the centuries...however it is interesting to note the ivory hilted Billaos with the silver spires only seen to have the central minaret type silver pommel, no side extrusions.

Thoughts on the subject?
Are better images of the Akbar sword or sword hilt available anywhere?

Akbar hilt from the thread mentioned
Saif hilt from Artzi's collection.

Gavin

Salaams freebooter Your first link doesnt work.

The left hand picture of the sword shows a Zanzibari Hilt without crossguard nucklegaurd or quillons on a blade from India or Persia ....cant read the stamp/ cartouche... (Not Malaysia.)

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Dom]

I acquired, there is more than 35 years ago, in the Yemeni souk of Jeddah
an hilt in sterling silver,
exactly same model than the one displayed from Artzi's collection.

on this time the manufacturing art-crafts was still yet in production, I mean, in KSA, at least
these artisans produced this type of article, even with blade and scabbard,
but my personal economy, at this time, didn't allowed me this purchase

since "Gulf war", I listened than most of the Yemeni have being banished from KSA

later, I provided at this hilt, an blade from Afghanistan, and much more later a scabbard
from Damascus, where are, a lot of qualified craftsmen
may be now ... were ...

just in case of ... if someone knows, or has an indication about the blade's stamp,
I will be grateful, if he gives me the information, thanks by anticipation

all the best

à +

Dom

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Dom,
I hope I can be the one to help you a little this time .
On this link you can see a mark a bit like it http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=Tulwar
I too have a sword with part of the mark - see attached. I believe mine to be Deccani - no not Tipu, 18th century.
All the best
Jens
Ps. My blade is very heavy, not wootz and definately Indian made. I don't, yet, know what the mark means/symbolizes, but hope to 'meet' it in other connections.

[A.alnakkas]

Thanks for the info Gav its certainly interesting. This means that the Yemenis adopted this sword design from the Indians?

[Jim McDougall]

Dom,
That is a beautiful sa'if! The blade appears to me to be a European trade blade, especially with block ricasso, and the radiused tip blade known as 'hatchet point' on mid to latter 18th century (into 19th somewhat) cavalry sabres.
The mark is one noted as used by Milanese swordsmiths c.1610 (Wallace Coll., Sir James Mann, A613, rapier). The plural term of course suggests it was likely a guild type mark rather than makers mark. The manner which it is stamped at this particular quadrant of the blade at the ricasso resembles similar area for marks apparantly applied to blades on Moroccan/Algerian sa'ifs (nimcha, as shown in Briggs,1965). It would seem these marks were used by merchants receiving blades in Red Sea entrepots, the use of this mark and an incomplete dentated arc ('sickle mark') is not only contrary to European manner, but incongruent with area of blade applied for such marks applied in European centers.

The interpretative copy of this mark seen on Jens' blade which is as noted distinctly Indian, reveals the spurious use of European marks by Indian makers presumably to characterize 'quality' as perceived on earlier trade blades, but perhaps interpreted into a now lost talismanic or symbolic parlance.

The sword blade design is not 'Indian' but a European trade blade design which influenced blades produced there in some degree, as well as even the Persian trade shamshir blades with the well known 'Assad Adullhah' lion in cartouche. These blades reached even Malaysia, and as seen here, Red Sea trade and Arabian entrepots. Yemeni ports received many forms of trade blades in commerce typically carried out by Omani vessels enroute to the East African coast as well as returning from Zanzibar and Somalia. It would seem that materials from the Indian trade were often of course included in the outbound voyages after entering the route via Oman.

All best regards,
Jim

[Dom]

thank you very much indeed Jim and Jens
with your explanations, some tracks are open to me now
all the best

à +

Dom

[Gavin Nugent]

A wonderful and interesting diversion chaps, both interesting swords and I have questions about them too.....but what about the hilt types being the point of discussion? Do you have thoughts?

Gavin

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams freebooter Your first link doesnt work.

The left hand picture of the sword shows a Zanzibari Hilt without crossguard nucklegaurd or quillons on a blade from India or Persia ....cant read the stamp/ cartouche... (Not Malaysia.)

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams Ibrahiim,

I too don't see Malaysia in the hilt, maybe more learned collectors of the Malay region can chime in?

The link that is broken was this one;
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=goetz

Gavin

[Jim McDougall]

Far from my usual fields of study, but to me it does seem tempting to associate these Arabian sa'if hilts to the sharply canted hilts of the klewang of certain forms. While the highly stylized hilts of many of these and other Indonesian and Malay weapons seem to represent zoomorphic forms of indiscernible nature, the sharply canted hilt may have inspired Arab traders to adopt such forms.
The hilt from the article by Goetz shown as one of the oldest Mughal weapons in the original post is attributed to Sultan Akbar c.1603 as noted, but curiously in the Goetz article the hilt is stated to be from a Malay kris.
This seems an odd attribution, and it does not seem that this canted hilt style developed into any Indian sword form I know of offhand.

In the book, "Weapons:The Diagram Group" (1980, p.36, #13) the Arabian sa'if of this discussion is described as having a distinctive pommel, and 'found wherever there have been Arab communities'. This suggests that the hilt form was widely known throughout Arab trade routes, but of course does not specify where it might have originated.

These type hilts seem of course very close to the hilt shape of the well known Moroccan sa'if familiarly called the nimcha, which seem to have been present in that form into the earlier years of the 17th century. The main difference would be the sharper cant and triple projection theme. The 1603 Mughal hilt is tempting but to me seems more of a singular representation of outside influence. I have always noticed that the versions of the baskethilt khanda in Hindu colonized regions are typically sharply canted if I recall correctly. Perhaps this indicates the preference for this affectation outside the subcontinent proper.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Far from my usual fields of study, but to me it does seem tempting to associate these Arabian sa'if hilts to the sharply canted hilts of the klewang of certain forms. While the highly stylized hilts of many of these and other Indonesian and Malay weapons seem to represent zoomorphic forms of indiscernible nature, the sharply canted hilt may have inspired Arab traders to adopt such forms.
The hilt from the article by Goetz shown as one of the oldest Mughal weapons in the original post is attributed to Sultan Akbar c.1603 as noted, but curiously in the Goetz article the hilt is stated to be from a Malay kris.
This seems an odd attribution, and it does not seem that this canted hilt style developed into any Indian sword form I know of offhand.

In the book, "Weapons:The Diagram Group" (1980, p.36, #13) the Arabian sa'if of this discussion is described as having a distinctive pommel, and 'found wherever there have been Arab communities'. This suggests that the hilt form was widely known throughout Arab trade routes, but of course does not specify where it might have originated.

These type hilts seem of course very close to the hilt shape of the well known Moroccan sa'if familiarly called the nimcha, which seem to have been present in that form into the earlier years of the 17th century. The main difference would be the sharper cant and triple projection theme. The 1603 Mughal hilt is tempting but to me seems more of a singular representation of outside influence. I have always noticed that the versions of the baskethilt khanda in Hindu colonized regions are typically sharply canted if I recall correctly. Perhaps this indicates the preference for this affectation outside the subcontinent proper.

Salaams Jim ~ In the far off distant past (excuse for I cant remember when !) I noted that the shape of the Zanzibar hilt could have come from either the Moroccan side across Africa by land route or around Africa with the Portuguese... or... from further east... I think the latter link needs looking at... It may indeed be from there

It would be astonishing if that were the case since we also attribute (possibly) that the Kastane may have been influenced by Moorish traders (possibly) operating sea routes between Europe (Red Sea) Africa and Asia whereas it has been common practice to ignore the influence from the far east.

We may have the whole thing inside out !!

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

In the study of ethnographic arms, probably nothing is more challenging than entering the highly subjective area of the development and significance of possible representations in hilt forms and elements. With blades it is fairly clear which types of blades were favored and used in certain regions of various cultural spheres, though often confounded by the entry of trade blades into the equation.These however often have revealing markings helping trace thier possible provenance.

With hilts, these are of course usually locally applied, but when variations of ultra-stylized shapes and forms evolve it is difficult to determine from what point within complex trade routes over vast distances and cultural spheres these might have begun. Factor in the chronological element with constant changes in the various geopolitical presences along these routes and colonial regions and the whole matter is compounded considerably.

In my opinion the character of these triple prong, canted hilts may very well derive from the regions to the east and perhaps from the stylized zoologically oriented hilts of the tribal people there. These are so vaguely stylized that the creatures represented have, as far as I have known, never been definitively identified. They do have the canted configuration seen in these hilts, though the characteristic nock for the back of the hand in the cant of the grip/pommel I am not sure can be specifically traced to these type hilts.
These profiled hilts of the triple prong; the so called 'hawks head' of Southern Arabia, Yemen and the Moroccan/Algerian sa'ifs all have this distinctive hand nock. As far as the Moroccan 'nimcha' version of these, I am personally of the opinion that these derive from the Arabian swords via trade and colonial activity there. An interesting side note is that many 18th century Spanish colonial espadas carry this hand nock feature.

The arrival of this type of highly stylized zoomorphic hilt I would think may well have arrived in India via Arab trade moving westward. As often the case, direct contact is not necessarily the case, as interchange in the various posts and trade entrepots throughout these routes were the confluence of commerce and culture from numerous points and directions.
It would be interesting to know of any subsequent Indian hilt designs which might have evolved from the Akbar example from Goetz' article and post 1603.

By the same token, it would be interesting to consider whether the interesting triple point hilts which are attributed in Elgood to Hadhramaut with thier production in some degree to Hyderabad, might have developed there from the 'prototype' (?) of the Akbar sword. To determine that , of course we would have to discover how prevalent the production of these actually was in Hyderabad; the earliest provenanced examples, and compare those with earliest provenanced examples of these elsewhere.

A great topic for research and discussion, and Lofty, Im glad you revived this thread! With your clear interest in this type of sword, I would be most interested in your thoughts with aspects discussed here so far.

All best regards,
Jim

[A.alnakkas]

Hey Jim,

I own one of these. The blade on mine is of Indian origin from what I can tell based on my experience.

A photo posted by CharlesS awhile ago shows a Yemeni man wielding one of these swords so there is alot of evidence that supports it being used by Yemenis.

Not much I can add except that I am appreciative of the info said here!