Old Faceted Head Knobkerrie For Comment

Lew · 4th June 2007, 09:39 PM

Just fininished on ebay. Seems to be an older form of Zulu knobkerrie? Only cost a few portions of fish and chips

Lew

Tim Simmons · 4th June 2007, 09:52 PM

I was watching this. I think it is a nice buy. I have spent too much already

. have a look Lew. The pics are crap but it is a rare thing. I do not believe it is what the seller says.

CharlesS · 4th June 2007, 09:53 PM

African clubs are far away from my specialty, but I think this is more likely to be East African than Zulu or S. African. Just a hunch.

Lew · 4th June 2007, 10:08 PM

Charles I know these types of clubs are hard to verify when it comes to specific tribes but I have seen a couple of others that came from South Africa and were tagged Zulu but who can be sure?

Tim Simmons · 4th June 2007, 10:10 PM

I think you maybe a right Charlie

sorry just had to do that. Yes it does look like an East african club.

Lew · 4th June 2007, 10:12 PM

Well what ever it is it's still a nice one and the price was right

Btw that is why I put a ? after Zulu

Lew

Tim Simmons · 4th June 2007, 10:16 PM

Nice clubs. I do not know why but I like clubs. The thought of bludgening or being bludgeoned is horrible. Mind you being slashed up by some nut cases sharp steel is not very nice either.

Lew · 4th June 2007, 10:31 PM

[QUOTE=Tim Simmons]Nice clubs. I do not know why but I like clubs.

Tim

It must be the caveman is us.

Jim McDougall · 5th June 2007, 02:49 PM

Lew LOL!!!!

That poor Neanderthal guy is really gonna need therapy with that one!!!

Can you guys say more on identifying knobkerries as Zulu, which I pretty much presumed were the prime users of these. Also, I honestly was unaware of faceted examples, what would specify East African with this feature?
Wish I could be more specific, but would like to know about these and even general info would be a great help.
Thanks very much,
Jim

CharlesS · 5th June 2007, 03:59 PM

My generalization that it may be E. African comes from its overall shape and the curvature of the haft putting the 'knob' clearly on one side of the haft(Masaai and Kikuyu types are an example). The shape of the knob was not one of the reasons I suggested E. African. In more typical S. African designs the knob is found in the top center of the haft. I am sure there are exceptions in both cases, and these are just generaliztions on my part, again African clubs are "not my thing" and I am only partially familiar with them.

It's an interesting, quality example regardless of its origin.

Lew · 5th June 2007, 04:21 PM

Jim

I emailed Ian Knight and showed him the link. He thinks it's an older form of Zulu club circa 1879 or earlier.

Lew.

The Double D · 5th June 2007, 05:26 PM

I have faceted knobkerrie that trade 10 rand and two bags of christmas candy for...got it from a 12 year Zulu cow herd this past Christmas.

Sorry for bringing up values, but it is part of the story of the acquisition

Tim Simmons · 5th June 2007, 07:03 PM

Well I am sure this one is East African, south Sudan? Uganda? and towards the big lakes.

Jim McDougall · 5th June 2007, 10:37 PM

Thanks very much guys! I've been trying to 'broaden my horizons' and really dont know much on these so I really appreciate the notes. I hope the discussion continues and I admire the knowledge you all have on these...never stop learnin' !!!

Charles and Lew thanks for addressing the questions specifically.

All the best,
Jim

The Double D · 6th June 2007, 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

My generalization that it may be E. African comes from its overall shape and the curvature of the haft putting the 'knob' clearly on one side of the haft(Masaai and Kikuyu types are an example). The shape of the knob was not one of the reasons I suggested E. African. In more typical S. African designs the knob is found in the top center of the haft. I am sure there are exceptions in both cases, and these are just generaliztions on my part, again African clubs are "not my thing" and I am only partially familiar with them.

It's an interesting, quality example regardless of its origin.

I don't agree with your generalization Charles. I think "luck of the draw" for source of the material and type of construction has more to do with whether is aclub is off set than any regional consideration.

In my wife's Knobkerrie collection gathered here in Zululand we have both central head and off set.

All of our off set clubs are rootballs. All the central heads are carved sticks. Two of the offset heads came from Zulu sources, one came from amaPhondo. All Nguni people in Southern Africa.

Edited to add picture and clarify the point on our off set clubs

The Double D · 6th June 2007, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Jim

I emailed Ian Knight and showed him the link. He thinks it's an older form of Zulu club circa 1879 or earlier.

Lew.

With all due respect to Mr. Knight, I don't believe it possible to make such an estimation from the picture. The picture quality is not that great and the club just doesn't "look old". The pattern may be old, but I just don't think the club is....ain't young either. 1950-1970's maybe...that's my WAG.

VANDOO · 6th June 2007, 04:31 PM

AH YES THE FAMOUS DEBEERS FACET CUT MUST HAVE BELONGED TO A LADY AS THEY SEEM TO END UP WITH ALL THE DIAMONDS.

Lew · 6th June 2007, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Double D

With all due respect to Mr. Knight, I don't believe it possible to make such an estimation from the picture. The picture quality is not that great and the club just doesn't "look old". The pattern may be old, but I just don't think the club is....ain't young either. 1950-1970's maybe...that's my WAG.

DD

This is where I must disagree with you. It is very hard to determine age when it comes to patina on these clubs. Here is a club that came with providence dating back to the 1920s it belonged to an American geologist who was involved with the copper mining in the Congo. When I first received it it looked terrible but after a bit of polish it came out nice. The patina does not look much different than the club with the faceted head. Ian was basing his opinion on the the over all quality of the facet work on the head he said that more recent versions lack the quality work found on this club. The club may not be from 1879 and without providence it is hard to prove but sometimes you just have to go with estimates and opinions of other more experienced persons in that particular field of study. Still whatever the age it's a nice example of this type of club.

Lew

The Double D · 6th June 2007, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

DD
It is very hard to determine age when it comes to patina on these clubs.

Lew you are very right. That's what I am saying. Add to it the quality of the pictures and dating becomes even more difficult. I just don't see how you can date this from the pictures.

Quote:

Ian was basing his opinion on the the over all quality of the facet work on the head he said that more recent versions lack the quality work found on this club.

Mr. Knight may be right saying this is an 1879 pattern. But Mr. Knight is standing out in left field with me giving it any date. He can't date that club any more than I can. I have seen similar clubs dated from the 1950's in as good a quality. That doesn't make this club a club from the 1950's either.

Now this isn't meant to be negative directed at the club. We would not hesitate to add this club to our collection.

Lew · 6th June 2007, 08:41 PM

DD

Can you post some pics of your faceted head clubs for comparison?

Lew

The Double D · 7th June 2007, 06:18 AM

The one facted head we have is the second on the left in the above picture.

kai · 7th June 2007, 10:03 PM

Hello DD,

Could you post close-ups?

(I can see that the rootball was left with a kind of rough finish but can't make out any facets. Not that I doubt you - just would be nice to be able to compare them...

)

BTW, the far left piece doesn't seem to be a functional club - is this a purely ceremonial club or what's the story with this type?

Regards,
Kai

Lew · 26th June 2007, 04:30 AM

The club arrived today and it's a real nice one. Nice patina and carving job on the facets with a super dense head. I compared it with a Victorian era walking stick which exhibited a similar patina but only a half of shade darker than the club. So it is possible the club may be from mid to late 19th century it's a hard call.

Lew

Ferguson · 26th June 2007, 10:57 AM

That's really nice!
Steve

4th June 2007, 09:39 PM	#1
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Old Faceted Head Knobkerrie For Comment Just fininished on ebay. Seems to be an older form of Zulu knobkerrie? Only cost a few portions of fish and chips Lew Attached Images

4th June 2007, 10:31 PM	#8
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	[QUOTE=Tim Simmons]Nice clubs. I do not know why but I like clubs. Tim It must be the caveman is us. Attached Images Last edited by LOUIEBLADES; 4th June 2007 at 10:48 PM.

26th June 2007, 04:30 AM	#23
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	The club arrived today and it's a real nice one. Nice patina and carving job on the facets with a super dense head. I compared it with a Victorian era walking stick which exhibited a similar patina but only a half of shade darker than the club. So it is possible the club may be from mid to late 19th century it's a hard call. Lew Attached Images

4th June 2007, 09:52 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I was watching this. I think it is a nice buy. I have spent too much already . have a look Lew. The pics are crap but it is a rare thing. I do not believe it is what the seller says.

4th June 2007, 09:53 PM	#3
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	African clubs are far away from my specialty, but I think this is more likely to be East African than Zulu or S. African. Just a hunch.

4th June 2007, 10:08 PM	#4
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Charles I know these types of clubs are hard to verify when it comes to specific tribes but I have seen a couple of others that came from South Africa and were tagged Zulu but who can be sure?

4th June 2007, 10:10 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I think you maybe a right Charlie sorry just had to do that. Yes it does look like an East african club.

4th June 2007, 10:12 PM	#6
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Well what ever it is it's still a nice one and the price was right Btw that is why I put a ? after Zulu Lew

4th June 2007, 10:16 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Nice clubs. I do not know why but I like clubs. The thought of bludgening or being bludgeoned is horrible. Mind you being slashed up by some nut cases sharp steel is not very nice either.

5th June 2007, 02:49 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	Lew LOL!!!! That poor Neanderthal guy is really gonna need therapy with that one!!! Can you guys say more on identifying knobkerries as Zulu, which I pretty much presumed were the prime users of these. Also, I honestly was unaware of faceted examples, what would specify East African with this feature? Wish I could be more specific, but would like to know about these and even general info would be a great help. Thanks very much, Jim

5th June 2007, 03:59 PM	#10
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	My generalization that it may be E. African comes from its overall shape and the curvature of the haft putting the 'knob' clearly on one side of the haft(Masaai and Kikuyu types are an example). The shape of the knob was not one of the reasons I suggested E. African. In more typical S. African designs the knob is found in the top center of the haft. I am sure there are exceptions in both cases, and these are just generaliztions on my part, again African clubs are "not my thing" and I am only partially familiar with them. It's an interesting, quality example regardless of its origin.

5th June 2007, 04:21 PM	#11
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Jim I emailed Ian Knight and showed him the link. He thinks it's an older form of Zulu club circa 1879 or earlier. Lew.

5th June 2007, 05:26 PM	#12
The Double D Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: On the banks of Cut Bank Creek, Montana Posts: 189	I have faceted knobkerrie that trade 10 rand and two bags of christmas candy for...got it from a 12 year Zulu cow herd this past Christmas. Sorry for bringing up values, but it is part of the story of the acquisition

5th June 2007, 07:03 PM	#13
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Well I am sure this one is East African, south Sudan? Uganda? and towards the big lakes.

5th June 2007, 10:37 PM	#14
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	Thanks very much guys! I've been trying to 'broaden my horizons' and really dont know much on these so I really appreciate the notes. I hope the discussion continues and I admire the knowledge you all have on these...never stop learnin' !!! Charles and Lew thanks for addressing the questions specifically. All the best, Jim

6th June 2007, 04:31 PM	#17
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	AH YES THE FAMOUS DEBEERS FACET CUT MUST HAVE BELONGED TO A LADY AS THEY SEEM TO END UP WITH ALL THE DIAMONDS.

6th June 2007, 08:41 PM	#20
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	DD Can you post some pics of your faceted head clubs for comparison? Lew

7th June 2007, 06:18 AM	#21
The Double D Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: On the banks of Cut Bank Creek, Montana Posts: 189	The one facted head we have is the second on the left in the above picture.

7th June 2007, 10:03 PM	#22
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Hello DD, Could you post close-ups? (I can see that the rootball was left with a kind of rough finish but can't make out any facets. Not that I doubt you - just would be nice to be able to compare them... ) BTW, the far left piece doesn't seem to be a functional club - is this a purely ceremonial club or what's the story with this type? Regards, Kai

26th June 2007, 10:57 AM	#24
Ferguson Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kernersville, NC, USA Posts: 793	That's really nice! Steve