Scottish sword

Alexander · 16th December 2011, 09:29 PM

Friends! I have got the Scottish sword and would like to know your opinion:
1. Whether the sword model 1798?
2. It is officer or warrant officer?
3. About what year release of this sword was made?
4. A sword infantry or a cavalry?
5. Whether it is possible to define time of manufacturing of a sword precisely?
Respect, Alexander.

thinreadline · 17th December 2011, 01:26 PM

Superficially this looks like the first pattern of Scottish officers basket hilt sword from the late 1790s but there are some discrepancies that sound alarm bells. I cannot see a short single fuller in the blade, and the blade does not have a well defined ricasso , nor does the finish and quality look right to me. The scabbard is not the right pattern for this sword , it has superficial similarities to later basket hilt scabbards, but not close enough . The late 18th century basket hilt scabbard was leather with brass or gilt fitttings . I dont like to make pronouncements without a sword actually in my hand , but you need to know that this pattern of sword has been heavily reproduced in India .

Lee · 17th December 2011, 06:04 PM

I find the hilt engraving to be somewhat convincing for 18 or 19th century Scotland and I note a fracture in the brass. If this is a genuine antique, and I hope that it is, it would appear more likely to be a 'civilian' example.

However, thinreadline is most correct in noting that Scottish things are a treacherous area rife with forgeries and fakes and requiring utmost caution.

Jim McDougall · 17th December 2011, 07:01 PM

It appeared that this baskethilt may well be of course, modernly refurbished and elements of the hilt itself are consistant with the early baskethilts used by officers in the Highland infantry regiments c.1790s. These hilts were of either iron or gilt copper, seemingly in accord to regimental preferences. There were not distinct regiment patterns adopted until late 1790s and slow to be emplaced as commonly seen.

The domed pommel has the profiled vertical flutes in quadrant in similar style of other decorative profiled lines on these type pommels in Scottish hilts c.1760s (Mazansky, p.153, Royal Armouries IX1080) but this is a more geometric design.

The blade has evidence of ricasso block and central median ridge but appears to have been dramatically ground overall. There is no forward guard on the hilt as would normally be in place in hilts of 18th century and I wonder of this hilt might have had that removed during refurbishing (well done with the grip wrap).

I am wondering if this might be components of an earlier Scottish regiment sword in the latter 18th century in India, refurbished much later with perhaps a later blade by armourers present to maintain servicable weapons for British forces. While there is considerable material in this period by the National Galleries of Scotland (1999, "The Tiger and the Thistle", online)....I would point out that basket hilt swords were used during the Raj by officers in native units. I have seen photos of these Indian officers, one I recall of 'The Khyber Rifles' with a basket hilt sword. Naturally comes to mind the photographic 'props' used by photographers in these times, however this seems a quite servicable weapon and well put together, as noted with perhaps one of the later 19th century Scottish blades.

The scabbard is of course as noted atypical, especially in the curious carry ring arrangement, set for both the frog or baldric carry as well as the side sling mount.

A nice example which I suspect may be of old component hilt and newer blade and assembled during the Raj. Despite the replica industry well known in India to present times, these components seem vintage but of varying period. As Lee has well noted, the decoration on the saltire panels seems in accord with 18th century style.

All best regards,
Jim

P.S. Alexander, to your original questions, these swords were originally for battalion company officers of foot (infantry). While cavalry troopers of Scottish units did use basket hilts, by this period at the beginning of the 19th century the officers typically corresponded to developing regulation forms. The basket hilt cavalry backswords gave way to sabres with stirrup hilts in these times as well, the last 'baskethilt' form for cavalry officers was the nebulous M1788 for heavy cavalry.

Alexander · 17th December 2011, 08:23 PM

I send additional photos.

Alexander · 17th December 2011, 08:51 PM

I send additional photos.

Jim McDougall · 18th December 2011, 01:17 AM

Great, thanks.

I would point out additionally that the brass or copper type hilts seem to predate 1825, but that there may have been variants for musicians in the bands of Scottish regiments. While regimental devices were often engraved in the saltires on some of the officers baskethilts, it seems the motif on this is a bit more 'universal'.
It seems also that band swords often had brass scabbards to correspond with the brass hilts, at least on hangers of 19th c. I've seen.

16th December 2011, 09:29 PM	#1
Alexander Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Russia, Moscow. Posts: 48	Scottish sword Friends! I have got the Scottish sword and would like to know your opinion: 1. Whether the sword model 1798? 2. It is officer or warrant officer? 3. About what year release of this sword was made? 4. A sword infantry or a cavalry? 5. Whether it is possible to define time of manufacturing of a sword precisely? Respect, Alexander. Attached Images

17th December 2011, 07:01 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	It appeared that this baskethilt may well be of course, modernly refurbished and elements of the hilt itself are consistant with the early baskethilts used by officers in the Highland infantry regiments c.1790s. These hilts were of either iron or gilt copper, seemingly in accord to regimental preferences. There were not distinct regiment patterns adopted until late 1790s and slow to be emplaced as commonly seen. The domed pommel has the profiled vertical flutes in quadrant in similar style of other decorative profiled lines on these type pommels in Scottish hilts c.1760s (Mazansky, p.153, Royal Armouries IX1080) but this is a more geometric design. The blade has evidence of ricasso block and central median ridge but appears to have been dramatically ground overall. There is no forward guard on the hilt as would normally be in place in hilts of 18th century and I wonder of this hilt might have had that removed during refurbishing (well done with the grip wrap). I am wondering if this might be components of an earlier Scottish regiment sword in the latter 18th century in India, refurbished much later with perhaps a later blade by armourers present to maintain servicable weapons for British forces. While there is considerable material in this period by the National Galleries of Scotland (1999, "The Tiger and the Thistle", online)....I would point out that basket hilt swords were used during the Raj by officers in native units. I have seen photos of these Indian officers, one I recall of 'The Khyber Rifles' with a basket hilt sword. Naturally comes to mind the photographic 'props' used by photographers in these times, however this seems a quite servicable weapon and well put together, as noted with perhaps one of the later 19th century Scottish blades. The scabbard is of course as noted atypical, especially in the curious carry ring arrangement, set for both the frog or baldric carry as well as the side sling mount. A nice example which I suspect may be of old component hilt and newer blade and assembled during the Raj. Despite the replica industry well known in India to present times, these components seem vintage but of varying period. As Lee has well noted, the decoration on the saltire panels seems in accord with 18th century style. All best regards, Jim P.S. Alexander, to your original questions, these swords were originally for battalion company officers of foot (infantry). While cavalry troopers of Scottish units did use basket hilts, by this period at the beginning of the 19th century the officers typically corresponded to developing regulation forms. The basket hilt cavalry backswords gave way to sabres with stirrup hilts in these times as well, the last 'baskethilt' form for cavalry officers was the nebulous M1788 for heavy cavalry. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 17th December 2011 at 07:51 PM.

17th December 2011, 08:23 PM	#5
Alexander Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Russia, Moscow. Posts: 48	I send additional photos. Attached Images

17th December 2011, 08:51 PM	#6
Alexander Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Russia, Moscow. Posts: 48	I send additional photos. Attached Images

17th December 2011, 01:26 PM	#2
thinreadline Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Wirral Posts: 1,204	Superficially this looks like the first pattern of Scottish officers basket hilt sword from the late 1790s but there are some discrepancies that sound alarm bells. I cannot see a short single fuller in the blade, and the blade does not have a well defined ricasso , nor does the finish and quality look right to me. The scabbard is not the right pattern for this sword , it has superficial similarities to later basket hilt scabbards, but not close enough . The late 18th century basket hilt scabbard was leather with brass or gilt fitttings . I dont like to make pronouncements without a sword actually in my hand , but you need to know that this pattern of sword has been heavily reproduced in India .

17th December 2011, 06:04 PM	#3
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 913	I find the hilt engraving to be somewhat convincing for 18 or 19th century Scotland and I note a fracture in the brass. If this is a genuine antique, and I hope that it is, it would appear more likely to be a 'civilian' example. However, thinreadline is most correct in noting that Scottish things are a treacherous area rife with forgeries and fakes and requiring utmost caution.

18th December 2011, 01:17 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Great, thanks. I would point out additionally that the brass or copper type hilts seem to predate 1825, but that there may have been variants for musicians in the bands of Scottish regiments. While regimental devices were often engraved in the saltires on some of the officers baskethilts, it seems the motif on this is a bit more 'universal'. It seems also that band swords often had brass scabbards to correspond with the brass hilts, at least on hangers of 19th c. I've seen.