Seldom seen Kilic type

[Gavin Nugent]

A Kilij type that usually has a shamshir type blade profile rather than the raised yelman seen on this example.
Silver dress with gilded edges and grip strap, Rhino hilt and original silk and bullion baldric still retaining leather covering in places, leather most likely added for use in a campaign or travel as I'd think the silk and bullion thread would not be covered otherwise but would like to hear from others on this point.
The blade shows a good bold pattern and despite a couple of ugly blemishes that will polish off in an instant, it is free from any pitting. Unsigned but of very good quality and still damn sharp.

I hope it is found to be of interest in its completeness and I look forward to comments, questions, further discussion or other examples.

Gav

[Gavin Nugent]

Images help

[A.alnakkas]

Nice piece! would love to see the blade cleaned up.

[ALEX]

Gav, very nice indeed! Pleasure to look at. Thank you.
As for questions, I'd call it a shamshir, not Kilij. Yes, there is "rudimentary" yelman present, but it's a variety or feature of shamshir blade, not to make it a Kilij type. Also, does the hilt show fibrous structure? based on the pictures it's hard to tell rhino or not, the colour is too light and uniform (I could be totally wrong of course)

[Gavin Nugent]

Lofty, thank you, and indeed it will see the full cleaning treatment in time.

Alex, thank you too. Being a Turkish it is a Kilij by default, having a raised yelman, more so as many describe a Kilij blade in this manner. To call it Shamshir would be incorrect in the true sense by definition, though I have seen broad Persian trade blades with a yelman but not of this style.
The grip slabs are 110% Rhino horn and the finest, cleanest quality I have seen in some time.

[ALEX]

Gav, there are Indian blades with similar "yelman", and they're still called Tulwars:-). Yes, this is a Turkish sword, but does yelman alone make it a Kilij? Also, can this be called yelman? It's more of a "partial" yelman with slightly raised point at the false edge border. Without that "point" there would be no yelman.... yeah, I know what can I opened:-)
The overall profile, shape and dimensions indicate "shamshir", so it's 3 to 1:-) Would be interesting to hear other opinions.
You're right - fine quality rhino hilt, cool.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by ALEX

Gav, there are Indian blades with similar yelman, and they're still called Tulwars:-). You're right - this is a Turkish sword, but does yelman alone make it a Kilij? The overall profile, shape and dimensions indicate "shamshir", so it's 3 to 1:-) Would be interesting to hear other opinions.
You're right - fine quality rhino hilt, cool.

Alex, Turkish alone makes it a Kilij ;-) Sword in Turkish = Kilıç / Kilij. The Yelman is typically noted being of early Turkic origins so there is for want of a better word a 'pedigree' there and it is these influences in Mughal India that could account for some of these blades you note in Talwar.

[RSWORD]

This is a lovely sword with a fantastic bold wootz blade. It is nice to have such a complete example. I would date the mounts to the late 18th century with the blade probably earlier.

Personally, I would refer to this sword as a kilij. I tend to classify by blade and then hilt. So this example, to me, would be an Ottoman hilted kilij. Having a yelman and a widened blade towards the tip both say kilij to me. Again, this is more of a personal classification and don't know that it is uniformally applied amongst collectors. A shamshir to me is a blade of wedged shape cross section of slight or moderate curvature up to deep curvature but lacking a yelman. The spine is of continuous arc from handle to tip. So in your example of Indian swords being referred to as tulwar, I tend to elaborate a bit more. Let's say it is a shamshir(by my definition) blade. I would refer to that piece as a tulwar-hilted shamshir. With blades being traded, passed along, remounted often, to me the blade deserves its own attribution and then the handle and mounts are separately described or named. Of course, it can get muddied as some blades are not readily classified as either shamshir or kilij. Many Indian blades, for example, are more unique and I may classify them strictly as tulwar as opposed to tulwar hilted unique Indian blade sword.

[Gavin Nugent]

Hi Rick,

Thanks for coming in and I am glad you found this piece interesting.

With no comparative examples of blade profile that I know of dating is pretty hard but I suspect 1750-1800 for the entire piece...would like to know more if any member or reader is more versed in the specifics of these weapons.

I'll endevour if time permits to post another photo of the Yelman looking on to the spine rather than profile.

There is an art to the design and angle of the suspension baldirc, the draw cut is perfect in that the blade's tip automatically, when drawn, slashes at throat level.

[Gavin Nugent]

Well today was a most interesting day. I was lucky enough to have a wonderful guest visit and also a day with the family away....the combination gave us a good amount of time to inspect numerous swords that are normally static.

Two very interesting facets came to light. First being the profile of the blade; the spine is very much that of a Pala, only very subtle. What I hadn't noticed before but my guest did was that a hands spread away from the hilt the spine dips quickly towards the cutting edge before leading up towards the raised Yelman, glance would miss this but a finger touch does not. If you have a keen eye you can see this step in the images above.

The other interesting aspect found were two very small fine stamps to the silver, one to the throat piece, one to the drag piece. The mark after close examination is a Tughra. Of which ruler I am uncertain and will endevour to photograph and enquire further on the subject so perhaps a more accurate dating can be found.

I should recieve guests more often.

[katana]

I too would see this as a Kilij ....perhaps originally the yelman was more prenounced and this area re-worked to suit an individuals taste The metal removed would change the POB slightly and may or may not improve the cut on a 'back slash' or was better suited to the style of the owner.
Nice piece Gav.

Regards David

[Atlantia]

It's a beauty Gav!!
Are you going to do anything to the blade?

[Gavin Nugent]

Hi David,

Anything is possible with re-profiling but I think not looking at the flow of the blade from the hilt. A grip strap is currently unsecured and the blade from within the hilt all flows perfectly through to the tip.
I was lucky enough to recieve mail on the subject of this Kilij. The content points out with a provenanced example, that blades of this slimmer form were know as early as 1600...still lots to dig through....The Tughra marking ID will be most interesting and it prompts me to find the USB microscopes previously recommended but not actioned... I'll try the camera this weekend to see if that helps first...

Gene,

My intentions are to pass this on to Philip for a complete and proper polish and have a few other loose ends looked at too...however I am walking a very fine line at present with purchases such as this (and others) and keeping you know who happy at the same time....man what a task!!!!
Why walk on thin ice when you can dance...that's my motto!!!!

Gav

[Gavin Nugent]

The Tughra marking

Another is present on the edge of the drag.

Once photographed in much more detail I'll start looking for an exact match but looking at the short raised lines from the main body and that they are all inline height wise, it shouldn't be too hard to work out....

You can also catch a glimpse of the gilded edges to all fittings.

Gav

[ALEX]

Originally Posted by freebooter

...
... The content points out with a provenanced example, that blades of this slimmer form were know as early as 1600...still lots to dig through....

Here is a provenanced example of yelman'ed shamshir dated to the early 19th C. I've seen a few similarly-shaped/yelman'ed shamshirs also dated to 19th C.
Here is an "official" description:

THE OTTOMAN SILVER-MOUNTED SHAMSHIR PRESENTED TO CAPTAIN COLIN MACKAY OF BIGHOUSE BY MOHAMMED ALI PASHA OF EGYPT IN 1807 FOLLOWING HIS COMMAND OF THE GRENADIER COMPANY OF THE 2ND BATTALION OF THE 78TH REGIMENT OF FOOT AT EL HAMET IN 1807 ...

Calling these blades Shamshir or Kilij is a matter of personal taste, and dating/naming them based on the presence of yelman alone... not that easy.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by ALEX

Here is a provenanced example of yelman'ed shamshir dated to the early 19th C. I've seen a few similarly-shaped/yelman'ed shamshirs also dated to 19th C.
Here is an "official" description:

THE OTTOMAN SILVER-MOUNTED SHAMSHIR PRESENTED TO CAPTAIN COLIN MACKAY OF BIGHOUSE BY MOHAMMED ALI PASHA OF EGYPT IN 1807 FOLLOWING HIS COMMAND OF THE GRENADIER COMPANY OF THE 2ND BATTALION OF THE 78TH REGIMENT OF FOOT AT EL HAMET IN 1807 ...

Calling these blades Shamshir or Kilij is a matter of personal taste, and dating/naming them based on the presence of yelman alone... not that easy.

Indeed many terms in the arms world are a matter of taste , easy is to say sabre

I have seen many of these subtle yelman kilij dated from the ealry 1600s through to the early 1900s. One in particular carrying very good provenance from the early 1600s.

It is unfortunate that the provenance in the example presented only carries weight as so far as the date of gifting, not manufacture.

There are even similar looking blades dating to the second half of the 16th century that carry 19th century fittings......

[tom hyle]

More than anything else the blade style reminds me of 18th/early19th shah shish qa blades, (sha'sh'qa) particularly those associated to Afghanistan.
Consider that the usual kilich blade has two gently curved sections with an abrupt bend around about the middle and is wider than this, while the shamshir is a parabolic curve that gets more and more curved toward the tip. This blade has a relatively circular curve and the shape of the yelman reminds me of the Afghan swords I mentioned, as well.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by tom hyle

More than anything else the blade style reminds me of 18th/early19th shah shish qa blades, (sha'sh'qa) particularly those associated to Afghanistan.

Tom, I didn't see you sneak in here. Any visual reference to help describe this? I am unclear of the comparison you describe

Originally Posted by tom hyle

Consider that the usual kilich blade has two gently curved sections with an abrupt bend around about the middle and is wider than this,

Would you be describing the Pala? It sounds like it to me , got an image?

Originally Posted by tom hyle

while the shamshir is a parabolic curve that gets more and more curved toward the tip. This blade has a relatively circular curve and the shape of the yelman reminds me of the Afghan swords I mentioned, as well.

I'd love to see some camparative images.

Gav

[Nathaniel]

Wow, Gavin! Kilij are fantastic blades. Can't wait to see how the beauty of the blade comes out after Philip is finished with it...I'm sure it will really make the eyes pop!

[tom hyle]

Alas, the most I can do with this machine is type. watch movies, and spend money; I don't have a clue from posting pictures What a drag....

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by tom hyle

Alas, the most I can do with this machine is type. watch movies, and spend money; I don't have a clue from posting pictures What a drag....

What about cutting and pasting links?

Gav

[tom hyle]

nope

[Lew]

Originally Posted by freebooter

What about cutting and pasting links?

Gav

Gav

If Tom has pics they should be uploaded no hot links please.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Lew

Gav

If Tom has pics they should be uploaded no hot links please.

Lew, lets with you leave of course let Tom place the links here if they are available as he doesn't have the know how to paste images, then again by your leave, copy the images to the thread and as a moderator surely you can then go back an remove the links and easy solution rather than hamstringing learnings...you thoughts.

[ALEX]

good related information can also be found here:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...amic+Signature
See Rand's post: Kilij compared to classic shamhsir