Pair of arsenal Tulwars. Inscription help needed

Atlantia · 21st June 2008, 09:36 PM

Had these for a while, they are as you can see plain but functional. They have abnormally broad blades which are well tempered and sxtremely sharp. Double edged for the first 12 inches or so, a little crude but lovely springy steel. Bronze hilts.
Both have a similar punched inscriptions on the blades, I wondered if anyone could shed any light on them for me?

Thanks
Gene

Lew · 21st June 2008, 09:46 PM

Looks to be Bikiner Armoury markings.

Lew

Atlantia · 21st June 2008, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Looks to be Bikiner Armoury markings.

Lew

Ummm, Bikiner Armoury?

Rick · 21st June 2008, 10:20 PM

Bikaner armory used punch marks like these to inventory blades .
Some of the tulwars' symbols are matches to Bikaner markings .

This does not mean that the blades originated there .

ward · 22nd June 2008, 03:22 AM

bronze/brass hilts plain pounded out blades= late peasent swords. these were made quick and dirty.real but no quality

Jim McDougall · 22nd June 2008, 04:07 AM

I agree with Lew and Rick, the distinct dotted script is a Bikaner armoury characteristic, and this seems to have been a monumental establishment with the number of weapons associated with it. This is in Rajasthan, where these weapons are still produced. The appearance of identical weapons would suggest commercial products, but it seems unusual to have such detail as armoury marks applied.
It is worthy of note that in the latter 19th century, well into the 20th, the native cavalry regiments for the British Raj, had varying preferred swords selected by the officers. While many took previous British regulation patterns, many chose thier traditional tulwars. I had a pair of steel hilt tulwars that were incredibly pedestrian, munitions grade and stamped MOLE in the blade. These were apparantly of early 20th century and likely intended to be included in armoury stores for such issue. The lack of regimental marks suggests this issue was never reached, and I wonder if this may be the case with these.

Perhaps wishful thinking, but thought I would add this anyway. The traces of dark pitting in the blades suggest there is some age, and bronze can also be polished out. The blade profiles show the stepped back for the last third of the blade near to the point, a feature that would not seem to be used on commercial products for civilians.
In the military regulations there were apparantly indications on the length of tulwar blades for the native regiments, I believe 31" and 33" , one for Madras and the other Bengal, cannot recall specifics though.

ariel · 22nd June 2008, 05:39 AM

On the second pic one can see "footprints" of another langet under the current ones.
My guess these blades were remounted ; AFAIK, brass hilts indicate more recent origin.

kronckew · 22nd June 2008, 07:06 AM

there was previous discussions here as to the commonality of tulwar blades being rehilted, as well as the possibility of some suspicious local army leadership having the hilts and blades stored separately which would delay any local spur of the moment mutiny but allow reasonably quick reassembly in case of a real need by his armies.

Jim McDougall · 22nd June 2008, 03:27 PM

We have seen similar tulwar hilts with square moplah, as if intended for a wrench type tool to remove threaded pommel. In many cases the moplah is pierced to insert a small tool to unthread.

Jens Nordlunde · 22nd June 2008, 04:44 PM

The picture of the dot markings are not good enough to decide if they are Bikaner markings, but I doubt if they are. The Bikaner dot markings are mostly shorter, so only better picture can tell.

Jim McDougall · 23rd June 2008, 01:30 AM

maybe the dots mean something else

Atlantia · 23rd June 2008, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

maybe the dots mean something else

Long as they don't say 'Made in Hong Kong 1998' ! lol
I'll take some better pictures later, thanks all.

Jens Nordlunde · 23rd June 2008, 01:31 PM

On the second picture I can see the number 522 on the upper tulwar and 35? on the lower one, so it could be armoury marks.

21st June 2008, 09:36 PM	#1
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Pair of arsenal Tulwars. Inscription help needed Had these for a while, they are as you can see plain but functional. They have abnormally broad blades which are well tempered and sxtremely sharp. Double edged for the first 12 inches or so, a little crude but lovely springy steel. Bronze hilts. Both have a similar punched inscriptions on the blades, I wondered if anyone could shed any light on them for me? Thanks Gene

22nd June 2008, 03:22 AM	#5
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	bronze/brass hilts plain pounded out blades= late peasent swords. these were made quick and dirty.real but no quality Last edited by ward; 22nd June 2008 at 05:56 AM.

22nd June 2008, 04:07 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	I agree with Lew and Rick, the distinct dotted script is a Bikaner armoury characteristic, and this seems to have been a monumental establishment with the number of weapons associated with it. This is in Rajasthan, where these weapons are still produced. The appearance of identical weapons would suggest commercial products, but it seems unusual to have such detail as armoury marks applied. It is worthy of note that in the latter 19th century, well into the 20th, the native cavalry regiments for the British Raj, had varying preferred swords selected by the officers. While many took previous British regulation patterns, many chose thier traditional tulwars. I had a pair of steel hilt tulwars that were incredibly pedestrian, munitions grade and stamped MOLE in the blade. These were apparantly of early 20th century and likely intended to be included in armoury stores for such issue. The lack of regimental marks suggests this issue was never reached, and I wonder if this may be the case with these. Perhaps wishful thinking, but thought I would add this anyway. The traces of dark pitting in the blades suggest there is some age, and bronze can also be polished out. The blade profiles show the stepped back for the last third of the blade near to the point, a feature that would not seem to be used on commercial products for civilians. In the military regulations there were apparantly indications on the length of tulwar blades for the native regiments, I believe 31" and 33" , one for Madras and the other Bengal, cannot recall specifics though. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 22nd June 2008 at 04:18 AM.

21st June 2008, 09:46 PM	#2
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Looks to be Bikiner Armoury markings. Lew

21st June 2008, 10:20 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Bikaner armory used punch marks like these to inventory blades . Some of the tulwars' symbols are matches to Bikaner markings . This does not mean that the blades originated there .

22nd June 2008, 05:39 AM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	On the second pic one can see "footprints" of another langet under the current ones. My guess these blades were remounted ; AFAIK, brass hilts indicate more recent origin.

22nd June 2008, 07:06 AM	#8
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,183	there was previous discussions here as to the commonality of tulwar blades being rehilted, as well as the possibility of some suspicious local army leadership having the hilts and blades stored separately which would delay any local spur of the moment mutiny but allow reasonably quick reassembly in case of a real need by his armies.

22nd June 2008, 03:27 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	We have seen similar tulwar hilts with square moplah, as if intended for a wrench type tool to remove threaded pommel. In many cases the moplah is pierced to insert a small tool to unthread.

22nd June 2008, 04:44 PM	#10
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	The picture of the dot markings are not good enough to decide if they are Bikaner markings, but I doubt if they are. The Bikaner dot markings are mostly shorter, so only better picture can tell.

23rd June 2008, 01:30 AM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	maybe the dots mean something else

23rd June 2008, 01:31 PM	#13
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	On the second picture I can see the number 522 on the upper tulwar and 35? on the lower one, so it could be armoury marks.