Are there examples of kukri that lack the distinctive notch(cho)?

Pitt1999 · 14th June 2022, 08:03 AM

With the cho being such a quintessential feature of the kukri, I think a kukri that lacks it's characteristic notch would make for an interesting variation of this type of knife.

kronckew · 14th June 2022, 11:53 AM

From what i've read, very early (pre 17c) ones may not have a recognisable cho/kaudi cutout. They still seem to have an unsharpened narrowing of the blade for a bit before it enters the grip. Exactly when & why they started having one is unknown, and still is. The modern take is that it is NOT a proper khukuri without it, just a KLO. (khukuri-Like Object. Many recent khukuri shaped machetes, and some large knives with recurved blades do not have one, and are this really just KLO.
(Khukuri is the transliteration of the Nepali word for these knives)

BBJW · 14th June 2022, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

From what i've read, very early (pre 17c) ones may not have a recognisable cho/kaudi cutout. They still seem to have an unsharpened narrowing of the blade for a bit before it enters the grip. Exactly when & why they started having one is unknown, and still is. The modern take is that it is NOT a proper khukuri without it, just a KLO. (khukuri-Like Object. Many recent khukuri shaped machetes, and some large knives with recurved blades do not have one, and are this really just KLO.
(Khukuri is the transliteration of the Nepali word for these knives)

The oldest kukri I have ( from a well known San Francisco collector) circa 1800 has a cho/kaudi. Koras before that did not have one. At least as far as I know.-- bbjw

werecow · 14th June 2022, 09:52 PM

Quote:

KLO. (khukuri-Like Object.

A condemnation, it sounds like. }|:oP

This one likes to live dangerously, but flinched.

kronckew · 18th June 2022, 08:14 AM

A KLO may be a perfectly good knife, thai eneps, Viet knives, other recurved knives, kopis, yataghans, etc., it's just not a khukuri. it's Not a disparaging term.

Kothimora scabbards with good functional older design khukuri are cool. The kardas and chakmaks (aux. blades;m karda is a utility knife, chakmak is a hardened very blunt 'steel' for rubbing out dents in the edge.) don't have a cho (and are not khukuris).

My Hanshee and my Enep: (and I eventually found a nepali museum with an 18c Khuk with a cho-less ricasso. It does have a proto-cho notch. The swords to the left are Indian sosun-pata KLOs.

Pitt1999 · 23rd June 2022, 05:24 AM

Thanks everyone for this information! I was asking more about the traditional Nepalese form, but I like the direction this went with the Kukri Like Objects. Thai enep knives were one of the closest things I have found that resemble a kukri without the cho. Certain examples of Chammoro knives can also resemble a kukri lacking a cho. While I was mulling over this topic I found the Heritage Knives website that features a section dedicated to the history of the military from John Powell, and there is this photo showing multiple kukris. If you look at the one at the very bottom, that example seems to lack the cho entirely, possibly not even having a ricasso. This kukri is the only one that I have seen in the traditional Nepalese form that doesn't even show a trace of the cho.

SidJ · 24th June 2022, 12:47 PM

Here is one of mine without a kaudi.

RobT · 24th June 2022, 07:57 PM

SidJ

Very interesting. Could you supply close ups of the cho area (most especially), hilt, and blade? Blade and hilt lengths would also be good.

Sincerely,
RobT

kronckew · 26th June 2022, 07:25 PM

Hard to tell on that sirupate, sidj.
Some had a closed form like mine:

kronckew · 26th June 2022, 07:29 PM

More cho/kaudi forms:

BBJW · 2nd July 2022, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

Hard to tell on that sirupate, sidj.
Some had a closed form like mine:

This closed style is known as 'Eye of Dove' according to Powell.- bbjw

kronckew · 3rd July 2022, 06:55 AM

Sidj's khuk appears to have an indistinct black spot that may be a cho of losed/open circular form, or could be a rust/dirt spot.

werecow · 23rd July 2022, 04:41 AM

I was fondling my moro keris/kalis tonight - pics attached (sorry about the poor lighting - if anyone is interested I can take a daytime picture) - and I noticed the very cho-like cut-out in the blade. It reminded me of this thread (although I suppose technically it is kind of the anti-thread for it), so I thought I'd ask about it here.

I assume these are related? And if so, is there a connection between the kukri and the kalis? A barong-kukri connection I could see... Both leaf shaped blades and such. But kukri and kalis are quite distinct, and I am not aware of any barong with a cho. It is interesting to see this feature on such different blades.

kronckew · 23rd July 2022, 12:57 PM

I don't think they are related. Parallel/convergent evolution? Drip stops?

Interested Party · 23rd July 2022, 03:23 PM

This is definitely outside of my expertise, but not my scope of interest. Could both be Shiva or trident related motifs? I think parallel development of related ideas gleaned from neighboring cultures could be quite possible, if amazingly serendipitous. Both cultures to my understanding were within or at least peripheral to the Hindu sphere of influence and trade.

I have always doubted the drip stop theory. It seems that if it was necessary or even highly advantageous, we would see more patterns use it in the last 5,000 years.

I look forward to hearing the forum weigh in on this subject.

colin henshaw · 23rd July 2022, 04:18 PM

If of any interest... here is a kukri-like chopping knife that came with some African stuff I wanted. Its a large heavy piece, with a thick spine. Length is approx. 44cm. Don't know where its from, can anyone advise ?

kronckew · 23rd July 2022, 04:56 PM

The blade shape is ubiquitous in SEA - cho-less.

Simple heavy choppers like that are found in kitchens everywhere.

My Thai Eneps:
Small (16in.) in wood scabbard, larger (25in) in the bamboo basket.
also two Viet Hmong (Montagnyard) knives, 8in. blades.

Battara · 1st August 2022, 02:08 AM

The Moro barong and kris are from completely different origins. The barong is more leaf shaped. It never takes the recurved shape of the kukri.

Regarding the kris mouth looking like a cho, different. When properly oriented, the Maguindanao kris mouth comes from the form of a bird (like in your example), often looking like an eagle. This also applies to the Maranao kris, though in a different form. With the Sulu regional krises, it takes on a different look, more like an elephant form.

They may look similar, but looks are deceiving.

SidJ · 9th January 2023, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

Sidj's khuk appears to have an indistinct black spot that may be a cho of losed/open circular form, or could be a rust/dirt spot.

Hi
The kukri does not have a cho or closed cho or even a shallow cho. In fact it has a v shaped protrusion where the cho is. The ricasso is flat otherwise.

kronckew · 10th January 2023, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SidJ

Hi
The kukri does not have a cho or closed cho or even a shallow cho. In fact it has a v shaped protrusion where the cho is. The ricasso is flat otherwise.

Bit like mine above, tho without the hoofprint holes...Gives you a location to stop sharpening

ausjulius · 18th January 2023, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colin henshaw

If of any interest... here is a kukri-like chopping knife that came with some African stuff I wanted. Its a large heavy piece, with a thick spine. Length is approx. 44cm. Don't know where its from, can anyone advise ?

that knife is not african its used in british burma as a belt knife for the military, it came with a leather riveted scabbard .. its modeled on the enep and other similar knives used by shan, thai, burmese ect ethnic groups.

14th June 2022, 08:03 AM	#1
Pitt1999 Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Posts: 107	Are there examples of kukri that lack the distinctive notch(cho)? With the cho being such a quintessential feature of the kukri, I think a kukri that lacks it's characteristic notch would make for an interesting variation of this type of knife.

18th June 2022, 08:14 AM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	A KLO may be a perfectly good knife, thai eneps, Viet knives, other recurved knives, kopis, yataghans, etc., it's just not a khukuri. it's Not a disparaging term. Kothimora scabbards with good functional older design khukuri are cool. The kardas and chakmaks (aux. blades;m karda is a utility knife, chakmak is a hardened very blunt 'steel' for rubbing out dents in the edge.) don't have a cho (and are not khukuris). My Hanshee and my Enep: (and I eventually found a nepali museum with an 18c Khuk with a cho-less ricasso. It does have a proto-cho notch. The swords to the left are Indian sosun-pata KLOs. Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 18th June 2022 at 08:40 AM.

23rd June 2022, 05:24 AM	#6
Pitt1999 Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Posts: 107	Thanks everyone for this information! I was asking more about the traditional Nepalese form, but I like the direction this went with the Kukri Like Objects. Thai enep knives were one of the closest things I have found that resemble a kukri without the cho. Certain examples of Chammoro knives can also resemble a kukri lacking a cho. While I was mulling over this topic I found the Heritage Knives website that features a section dedicated to the history of the military from John Powell, and there is this photo showing multiple kukris. If you look at the one at the very bottom, that example seems to lack the cho entirely, possibly not even having a ricasso. This kukri is the only one that I have seen in the traditional Nepalese form that doesn't even show a trace of the cho. Attached Images

24th June 2022, 12:47 PM	#7
SidJ Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 177	Here is one of mine without a kaudi. Attached Images

24th June 2022, 07:57 PM	#8
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 493	Close-up Requested SidJ Very interesting. Could you supply close ups of the cho area (most especially), hilt, and blade? Blade and hilt lengths would also be good. Sincerely, RobT Last edited by RobT; 24th June 2022 at 07:59 PM. Reason: additional info requested

14th June 2022, 11:53 AM	#2
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	From what i've read, very early (pre 17c) ones may not have a recognisable cho/kaudi cutout. They still seem to have an unsharpened narrowing of the blade for a bit before it enters the grip. Exactly when & why they started having one is unknown, and still is. The modern take is that it is NOT a proper khukuri without it, just a KLO. (khukuri-Like Object. Many recent khukuri shaped machetes, and some large knives with recurved blades do not have one, and are this really just KLO. (Khukuri is the transliteration of the Nepali word for these knives)

26th June 2022, 07:25 PM	#9
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	Hard to tell on that sirupate, sidj. Some had a closed form like mine: Attached Images

26th June 2022, 07:29 PM	#10
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	More cho/kaudi forms: Attached Images

3rd July 2022, 06:55 AM	#12
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	Sidj's khuk appears to have an indistinct black spot that may be a cho of losed/open circular form, or could be a rust/dirt spot. Attached Images

23rd July 2022, 04:41 AM	#13
werecow Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: Leiden, NL Posts: 499	I was fondling my moro keris/kalis tonight - pics attached (sorry about the poor lighting - if anyone is interested I can take a daytime picture) - and I noticed the very cho-like cut-out in the blade. It reminded me of this thread (although I suppose technically it is kind of the anti-thread for it), so I thought I'd ask about it here. I assume these are related? And if so, is there a connection between the kukri and the kalis? A barong-kukri connection I could see... Both leaf shaped blades and such. But kukri and kalis are quite distinct, and I am not aware of any barong with a cho. It is interesting to see this feature on such different blades. Attached Images

23rd July 2022, 12:57 PM	#14
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	I don't think they are related. Parallel/convergent evolution? Drip stops?

23rd July 2022, 03:23 PM	#15
Interested Party Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Location: Eastern Sierra Posts: 476	This is definitely outside of my expertise, but not my scope of interest. Could both be Shiva or trident related motifs? I think parallel development of related ideas gleaned from neighboring cultures could be quite possible, if amazingly serendipitous. Both cultures to my understanding were within or at least peripheral to the Hindu sphere of influence and trade. I have always doubted the drip stop theory. It seems that if it was necessary or even highly advantageous, we would see more patterns use it in the last 5,000 years. I look forward to hearing the forum weigh in on this subject.

23rd July 2022, 04:18 PM	#16
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	If of any interest... here is a kukri-like chopping knife that came with some African stuff I wanted. Its a large heavy piece, with a thick spine. Length is approx. 44cm. Don't know where its from, can anyone advise ? Attached Images

23rd July 2022, 04:56 PM	#17
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	The blade shape is ubiquitous in SEA - cho-less. Simple heavy choppers like that are found in kitchens everywhere. My Thai Eneps: Small (16in.) in wood scabbard, larger (25in) in the bamboo basket. also two Viet Hmong (Montagnyard) knives, 8in. blades. Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 23rd July 2022 at 05:09 PM.

1st August 2022, 02:08 AM	#18
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	The Moro barong and kris are from completely different origins. The barong is more leaf shaped. It never takes the recurved shape of the kukri. Regarding the kris mouth looking like a cho, different. When properly oriented, the Maguindanao kris mouth comes from the form of a bird (like in your example), often looking like an eagle. This also applies to the Maranao kris, though in a different form. With the Sulu regional krises, it takes on a different look, more like an elephant form. They may look similar, but looks are deceiving.