26th October 2010, 08:57 PM | #1 |
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Another Dayak Sword
Hallo guys!
Had the opportunity to see the private collection of an Indonesian whom I met this summer in the province of Kalimantan Barat. Among the edged weapons was one Dayak parang, and I just wanted to ask if someone maybe wants to comment. Real? Old? What Dayak-subgroup? Unfortunately, these two are the only photos as I was kinda rushed through that room in true Indonesian style Thus I don't know what the blade looks like. Comments on the other visible swords are also welcome, of course. greetings and thanks |
26th October 2010, 09:28 PM | #2 |
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THE DAYAK SWORD IS NOT AN OLD ONE BUT WAS MADE IN BORNEO. I SAW SOME LIKE IT IN SHOPS IN KUCHING AS WELL AS FOR SALE ON EBAY 2001 THRU PRESENT. THE MORE ATTRACTIVE ONES HAD NICELY CARVED BONE SECTIONS ATTACHED TO THE SCABBARD NOT JUST CARVED WOOD. WHERE IN BORNEO THEY WERE CARVED I DON'T KNOW.
THE TOP SWORD LOOKS TO BE FROM ONE OF THE INDONESIAN ISLANDS PERHAPS TORAJA OR TIMOR. THE NEXT ONE IS AN ACTUAL MILITARY SWORD. THE LAST ONE I CAN'T TELL MUCH ABOUT BUT DOSEN'T LOOK OLD. HERE ARE SOME PICTURES OF AN EXAMPLE CLOSE TO WHAT YOU SHOW. THIS ONE WAS DESCRIBED AS MADE OF CARVED BONE HARD TO TELL FROM PICTURES BUT I HAVE SEEN THEM IN WOOD AND BONE. THE BONE EXAMPLES COULD LIKELY BE THE MOST EXPENSIVE SWORD IN THE SMALL SHOP UNLESS THEY DEAL IN REAL ANTIQUES. MOST SHOPS I SAW IN BORNEO HAD FEW OR NO GOOD OLD TOP QUALITY MANDAU FOR SALE. THERE WERE LOTS OF SWORDS FROM NEW TO PERHAPS 50 T0 80 YEARS OLD BUT FEW 100 YEAR OLD ONES AVAILABLE. THERE IS QUITE A VARIETY OF ITEMS TO BE SEEN AND A TRIP TO BORNEO IS FUN AND VERY INTERESTING. THOSE WITH MONEY BUT LITTLE KNOWLEGE WILL OFTEN BUY THE MOST EXPENSIVE AND ATTRACTIVE/ EYE CATCHING ITEM. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT AND HIS FRIENDS WILL BE IMPRESSED. I AM FAR FROM AN EXPERT OR CONNISOUR OF DAYAK WEAPONS AND HAVE BOUGHT THINGS THAT THOSE WITH TRUE KNOWLEGE WOULD TURN THEIR NOSE UP AT, BUT THATS WHAT KEEPS IT INTERESTING AND FUN. IT ALSO MAKES A MARKET FOR OBSOLETE ITEMS SO SMALL SHOPS WILL CONTINUE TO MAKE AND MARKET THEM. Last edited by VANDOO; 27th October 2010 at 03:56 PM. |
26th October 2010, 11:10 PM | #3 |
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Any chance to post bigger pictures?
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26th October 2010, 11:29 PM | #4 |
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VANDOO, thanks for the answer. It surprises me a bit that this is not an original piece, as the owner was a little wealthier than the average Indonesian and seemed quite proud of his collection. But I trust your expertise no doubt. Maybe he was tricked by the seller himself.
Sajen, you get full resolution if you "click to zoom" on the imageshack website and then save the photo on your harddrive. If you already knew that and ask for even higher resolution, unfortunately no, this is already full resolution. My camera only has 6 Megapixels, which is far below average for 2010 standards, but well, it's all I got. |
26th October 2010, 11:35 PM | #5 | |
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The second sword from the top looks like what the Soenda call: Gobang Kalewang. It looks locally-made. If the blade is hand-forged, then it could be an original from circa 1902, probably made in Soerabaja or Soemedang(which, around 1850-1930 was the local "Solingen"). The last sword looks like a Middle-eastern type popular in Indonesia and referred to by the Soenda as: Saif (Arabic for sword). It may have been made locally (I'd have to see the blade). Best, Last edited by Amuk Murugul; 27th October 2010 at 12:08 AM. |
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26th October 2010, 11:40 PM | #6 | |
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We prefer that if possible . Any questions; feel free to ask . |
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27th October 2010, 10:42 AM | #7 |
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I tried to, but the upload tool says that my pictures exceed the maximum size limit. As I think the bigger the better for seeing details I decided to go with an external hoster instead of resizing.
Thanks at all for those informations. Most welcome |
27th October 2010, 01:59 PM | #8 | |
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The reason it is not a good idea to use another server for your images is that maybe a year from now it won't be there any more and this thread will no longer have your example to refer too. |
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27th October 2010, 07:08 PM | #9 |
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Hello Dingat,
now I understand! The top sword is from the Timor Islands ( Alor, Pantar, Roti, Savu, Timor and Wetar) and named in the book from Zonneveld type a. Regards, Detlef |
29th October 2010, 09:45 PM | #10 | |
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But your reasoning about this thread staying useful in the future is of course right, so here they are again, as attachments --------- Can the parang, despite not being an antique one, be attributed to a certain Dayak subgroup? And what shape do you think the blade has or might have? Same as the one VANDOO posted? Sajen, thank you. I'll look up that Timorese sword in the Zonneveld book. Fortunately the library where I work has it in their inventory, and I often browse through it when I have nothing to do Luckily enough, no one ever borrowed it... Last edited by Dinggat; 29th October 2010 at 09:56 PM. |
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29th October 2010, 10:40 PM | #11 | |
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The second from the top is a copy of the 1911 model "Sabel Marechaussee" So 1902 would be a little premature as a date of manufacture. Hela Dinngat, As for the mandau and Timor sword. tourist examples. Can't make it any better. At least I get the impression that they where not offered to you for sale. That is a plus. Check the search function on "mandau" and check some of the old threads. Good luck ! Best regards, Willem |
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30th October 2010, 12:22 AM | #12 |
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Yes, thank you. Mandau is the way to go.
They weren't offered to me for sale, they were in his possession as his private collection, and he just showed them to me for fun. Sabel Marechaussee was a good keyword. Found lots of pages via Google, among them several threads on Vikingsword Klewang being the Indonesian name for it. Can we be sure it is a copy, judging solely from the two photos? Edit/ Hehe, just noted somebody has written "DATU" (Malay honorific title) on the Mandau's hilt with a marker pen for whatever reason... |
30th October 2010, 04:40 AM | #13 | |
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Hullo everybody
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Best, |
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30th October 2010, 11:29 PM | #14 | |
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Hullo Everybody
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First of all, my apologies for a typo. The year of manufacture I was referring to in my initial reply was circa 1909, NOT circa 1902. WRT the photos.... too many uncertainties... For instance, from the angle: The tang screw appears smaller than normal... but is it so? The scale rivets appear to have 'X' marks... is it so? If so, are they punch marks or Phillips counter-sunk screw-heads? I can't detect any 'square corners' where there should be on the cut-outs of the guard...is it so? BTW... Klewang is not the specific Indonesian word for it, as klewang is a generic name used for a variety of edged weapons in the Archipelago. Only the Dutch use it specifically for this weapon.The specific Indonesian name for it is Pedang Marsose. Best, |
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31st October 2010, 12:51 PM | #15 | ||
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And the specific bladetip can even be recognised in the Model 1813 cavalry sword. Quote:
Always interesting how some first "stamp" sized pictures bring up te reactions. BTW There is a nice book on the militairy Klewang by Mr. J.P.. Puype. Best regards, Willem |
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1st November 2010, 12:17 AM | #16 | |||
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Hullo everybody,
I have no wish to enter into debate on this, so I'll simply end this matter (as far as I'm concerned) with my opinion on a couple of points: Quote:
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Should you then feel that you may have incontrovertible evidence that I am in error, please let me know and I will be only too glad to make any appropriate adjustment. Otherwise..... we will have to agree to disagree.. Best, Last edited by Amuk Murugul; 1st November 2010 at 12:37 AM. |
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2nd November 2010, 08:02 AM | #17 | ||
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Dear Amuk, I was not looking for a debate. This would be useless as the klewang has so many variants. Puypes book is based on the collection of the Legermuseum in Delft. Other sources might well bring to light other facts. Even specialists would disagree on certain things. My main issue was to point out that although locally developped, the design of the Klewang is based on European blades. Best regards, Willem |
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