Could use help identifying this flintlock pistol

[tombstone777]

Hello all! I've recently inherited this flintlock pistol and would love if you could help me identify it. It seems to me that it bears a strong resemblance to this gun http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002066.html but my barrel is much less engraved though the stock is very nicely carved and adorned with brass wire inlays. The lock very rusty and still moves a bit but is stuck in the full cock position. The barrrel, as you can see is coated with rust and after removing it I can see that it was not browned or blued. The butt piece is missing it's main "screw" or whatever you call it and the lock plate bolt heads are mostly rusted away.

It's pretty neat though and would love to know more about it. Any help you can provide would be greatly appreciated!

P.S. One of the photos shows the stock and barrel near the muzzle where there used to be a band. Any clue where to find the missing parts for a piece like this?

[celtan]

Check if it has a patent vent in the inner aspect of the pan.

Does the hammer's screw move a if you try to unscrew it, or is it fixed/soldered?

Normally, the end of Hammer screws in the 18th C were pointy, if it is flat, it's a bad sign.

Usually, there are screws that go through the outer face of the lock, and engage the plate on the opposite side. The screw positions in yours do not seem to correspond in this manner.

Does it have any poincons, words, signs inscribed on the barrel?

There were fake guns made for decoration purposes during Victorian times, these had a very weak action spring, and couldn't fire. The wood work was rather elaborate.

If I were you, I would disarm the lock and check if the inner workings correspond to the Real McCoy.

G'luck!

M

[tombstone777]

Hi again,

Not sure what you mean by a "patent vent" Celtan? (see attached pic of the barrel to see if the vent inlet looks legit) But in an answer to your other questions:

"Does the hammer's screw move a if you try to unscrew it, or is it fixed/soldered?" = Yes the hammer's screw moves and I can unscrew it.

"Usually, there are screws that go through the outer face of the lock, and engage the plate on the opposite side. The screw positions in yours do not seem to correspond in this manner." = I agree with you that many lock plates have screw ends that go out the exterior of the plate - but I have seen many that don't as well.

"Does it have any poincons, words, signs inscribed on the barrel?" = There are some faint inscribed patterns on the barrel, no makers marks or words - and I'm not quite sure what a poincon is... but I'm attaching an image that will show what is on the barrel.

"If I were you, I would disarm the lock and check if the inner workings correspond to the Real McCoy." = I have dismantled the weapon and I will ask you and the other forum memnbers to help me in ascertaining if it is the "real McCoy" or not.

I thank you again for your help an in sharing your knowledge.

Best Regards,
Tim

[kahnjar1]

Hi,
In my opinion this IS the real thing and likely Belgian made for the eastern market. There appears to be a round circle on the barrel just forward of the stock wood. Although not clear this COULD be a Liege Proof Mark. If you can clean it up a bit it may become a little clearer.
These were made up until quite late (for flintlock) and some even VERY early 20th century. The reason for the late use of muzzleloader, and particularly flint, was that cartridges and percussion caps in eastern countries could be relativly hard to find, but powder and projectiles of all sorts were not. Hence the much later use of muzzleloaders.
Regards Stuart

[Atlantia]

I agree it looks real. My initial thoughts were Balkan/Turkish.
What a great restoration project for the coming winter!
Betweeen now and then get yourself all the little tools you'll need to remake some screws and bits.
Dremmel......

[celtan]

Hi Tim,

Everything looks legit. The type of lock suggests an european maker, although it is unusually decorated.

"Patent" means that it goes all the way through from pan to chamber. Poincons are the armourer's marks, hammered in the metal with dies.

Congrats! Nice acquisition.

M

Originally Posted by tombstone777

Hi again,

Not sure what you mean by a "patent vent" Celtan? (see attached pic of the barrel to see if the vent inlet looks legit) But in an answer to your other questions:

"Does the hammer's screw move a if you try to unscrew it, or is it fixed/soldered?" = Yes the hammer's screw moves and I can unscrew it.

"Usually, there are screws that go through the outer face of the lock, and engage the plate on the opposite side. The screw positions in yours do not seem to correspond in this manner." = I agree with you that many lock plates have screw ends that go out the exterior of the plate - but I have seen many that don't as well.

"Does it have any poincons, words, signs inscribed on the barrel?" = There are some faint inscribed patterns on the barrel, no makers marks or words - and I'm not quite sure what a poincon is... but I'm attaching an image that will show what is on the barrel.

"If I were you, I would disarm the lock and check if the inner workings correspond to the Real McCoy." = I have dismantled the weapon and I will ask you and the other forum memnbers to help me in ascertaining if it is the "real McCoy" or not.

I thank you again for your help an in sharing your knowledge.

Best Regards,
Tim

[Jim McDougall]

Very interesting thread, as well as an intriguing gun!
As I am always interested in learning more on these early guns, and have always been attracted to these old flintlocks, it is fascinating to learn that they were still produced so much later than thought. Thank you for that information Stu.
Manuel, excellent tips in identifying and authenticating these pieces.
These are the kinds of things that are so helpful guys, thank you!

Tombstone, I hope you dont mind of I ask, but I'm always so envious whenever items come up that are inherited!!! I always hope that there is a genuine opportunity to establish provenance with a piece that has come in from outside the collecting community.
Can we know more about the circumstances on this piece, perhaps any history of how this piece came to the individual who previously owned it. If the person was not a collector, maybe more on thier personal history might say more about its origins.
I realize this may be personal, and if so please disregard, but in many cases these inherited items are presented with some degree of history and prove to be fascinating, even more so than this already intriguing piece.

Thank you,
All best regards,
Jim

[tombstone777]

Hi Jim!

I too love to find out more about the provinence of these wonderful pieces of history and I will relay to you what little I know now. I inherited this from my sister-in-law a couple of weeks ago. Her Dad worked for Texaco I believe and he and his wife travelled extensively thoughout the world during his career and after retirement and I suppose you could consider him to have been a collector of sorts. He picked up weapons and other interesting pieces in his travels and, while I do not know where he got this particular gun, I'm sure that it was in the middle or near east, probably in the late 60's.

He passed away about 15 years ago and his wife has recently had multiple brain hemmorages which has rendered her all but comatose. So - no help there on where it was aquired. I will see if my sister-in-law can recall any stories about it - she does remember the story of how he aquired the WWII Katana (which I have another current post on) from a dutch sailor who claimed it was taken from a Japanese officer during the war.

I will pass along any more info that I receive so as to help in keeping the history of this piece alive. In the meantime I will work on cleaning it up a bit more to reveal more detail.

Any thoughts on how to clean the stock? It has quite a bit of inlaid wire (probably brass but could be silver - it's so patinated that I can't tell yet) and also bits of wire inserted almost like tiny, headless nails, in patterns along the inlaid wire.

I'll report back soon. Thanks again for the wealth of knowledge that's being shared!

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Tim,
Thank you for sharing the information at hand on these pieces, and I am sorry to hear that such misfortune has fallen on these people. I hope that further research can add some useful history to what little is known so that the comfort of these pieces of now family history can be preserved.
The guys here have incredible knowledge on these weapons, and hopefully research will continue to reveal more information.

In the meantime, my position on cleaning and restoring of weapons, far from any expertise, is to stay emphatically conservative. The age that develops on weapons in the form of patination and darkening,aside from any type of active rust, rot or such degradation, is simply pure history, and adds to the distinct character of the piece.

I think the others will add more on best means for preservation and cleaning. I've only ever used gun oil, WD40 and for wood , lemon oil.

Thank you again for sharing these here.

All the best,
Jim

[celtan]

An ultrasonic tgoothbrush, like Braun or Oracare, plus Windex. The wood can then be taken care of with Orange Oil.
Don't polish any brass! If there's active "red" rust, you may take care of it with a very fine sandpaper or wire-mesh sponge.
Once the rust is inactivated, clean away the oil from the metal, and polish with restorer's wax, or even plain Car Wax.
Best
M

Originally Posted by tombstone777

Hi Jim!

I too love to find out more about the provinence of these wonderful pieces of history and I will relay to you what little I know now. I inherited this from my sister-in-law a couple of weeks ago. Her Dad worked for Texaco I believe and he and his wife travelled extensively thoughout the world during his career and after retirement and I suppose you could consider him to have been a collector of sorts. He picked up weapons and other interesting pieces in his travels and, while I do not know where he got this particular gun, I'm sure that it was in the middle or near east, probably in the late 60's.

He passed away about 15 years ago and his wife has recently had multiple brain hemmorages which has rendered her all but comatose. So - no help there on where it was aquired. I will see if my sister-in-law can recall any stories about it - she does remember the story of how he aquired the WWII Katana (which I have another current post on) from a dutch sailor who claimed it was taken from a Japanese officer during the war.

I will pass along any more info that I receive so as to help in keeping the history of this piece alive. In the meantime I will work on cleaning it up a bit more to reveal more detail.

Any thoughts on how to clean the stock? It has quite a bit of inlaid wire (probably brass but could be silver - it's so patinated that I can't tell yet) and also bits of wire inserted almost like tiny, headless nails, in patterns along the inlaid wire.

I'll report back soon. Thanks again for the wealth of knowledge that's being shared!

[kahnjar1]

This stock looks OK to me with maybe a little dirt against the carved bits. I would be inclined to give it a rub over with some raw linseed oil and see how it looks after that. Linseed oil was what was used on those really nice English gunstocks you see around, and was rubbed by hand. If you find that you would like to enhance the silver inlays, then give it a VERY LIGHT rub over with FINE "Steelo" (not the soap variety) before oiling it.
Where the barrel and lock lay, you will need to remove any rust residue also.
As you have the pistol in bits I would suggest the pineapple juice bath to clear the rust. By the look of the metal parts this may take you some considerable time, but it WILL work.
ALSO MAKE SURE THAT THERE IS NOT A CHARGE DOWN THE BARREL!
Hope this helps.
Regards Stuart

[tombstone777]

Hi Stuart, M and Jim!

Thanks again for the great input and I will proceed with the cleaning in a conservative manner - I certainly don't want to take away any of it's historic character. How long do you think the pineapple juice soak should be? Will it etch the metal at all and/or remove fine details of the engraving on the lock? And what are your thoughts on replacing the lock screws and fabricating a barrel band and the "screw" or finial that once held the butt pice in place? Should the barrel band be made of brass or silver (since there is silver inlay on the stock)?

Again all thoughts and opinions are welcome and appreciated!

Best Regards
,Tim

[kahnjar1]

The pineapple juice will take quite a time but be patient. It will be worth it in the end. Process is to let it soak for a few days and use (maybe household Scotchbrite--that green abrasive cloth) to remove loosened rust. Keep repeating the process until most of the surface rust is gone, and then use fine Steelo once the metal surface is revealed. You will also need to refresh the pineapple juice frequently. You will end up with a greyish surface on the metal but this is easily removed with a light rubbing with Steelo. The process will not damage the surface.
As far as part replacement is concerned, my policy has always been to use what you have, but obviously if parts are broken or missing then they will have to be mended/replaced. If you have a local friendly gunsmith, he may have boxes of old gunscrews which could just suit your needs.
In my opinion the missing barrel band would be brass, but get the colour right when you chose the piece. Brass DOES vary in colour. Check out books to get an idea of what it should look like. As far as the finial goes, I would glue it in place and put a suitable brass plug in the hole. PM or email me if you like with any other questions.
Regards Stu