Keris info

jor-el · 8th August 2005, 08:24 AM

Dear all,

i would like firstly to congratulate you all for the very good site you have here. I 've seen a lot of people here with much knowledge in keris and because i recently have one, i would like your help with its characteristics (pamor-dapour etc.). If it is possible to help me with its age and the pamor spiritual power i'll owe you.

Best regards,
Themis

Satria · 8th August 2005, 12:10 PM

I think the information of your keris is :
Dapur : Kidang Soka with ganja wilut
Pamor : Wos wutah
Tangguh : I don't sure which era of your keris because not on hold. But in my opinion is 75% old keris.

If my opinion is mistake, please another members correct me.

jor-el · 8th August 2005, 12:20 PM

Thank you for your opinion Satria.
I was told that it is early 14th centrury (early Majabahit) and with pamor for protection.

BR,
Themis

jor-el · 8th August 2005, 03:35 PM

If somebody has another opinion please feel free to write it. Even if you have the same one.

Themis

jor-el · 8th August 2005, 08:14 PM

Does anybody know what kind is pamor Tundhung Musuh?
Does anybody have pictures with a keris with this pamor?

BR,
Themis

Alam Shah · 9th August 2005, 03:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Satria

I think the information of your keris is :
Dapur : Kidang Soka with ganja wilut
Pamor : Wos wutah
Tangguh : I don't sure which era of your keris because not on hold. But in my opinion is 75% old keris.

Agreed with Satria,

Just to add a little.

Looks like a Surakarta blade with kembang kacang Nguku Bima.
Heavy wear on the 'dada', between luk 1 to 3, 3 to 5, 5 to 7 and 7 to 9.
Wear might be due to rust-removal and etching, over the years.

The ukiran (hilt) is of gaya Surakarta wanda Yudawinatan.

Tundung Mungsuh is a pamor pattern found on the 'ganja' area.
It looks like a sideways 'V'-shaped formation.
The point of the 'V'-shape is pointed toward the 'sirah cecak' area.
This pamor pattern is deemed suitable for those who are warriors.
The meaning of Tundung mungsuh in Javanese is literary 'to oust the enemy'.

BTW, this keris does not have pamor Tundung Mungsuh.

jor-el · 9th August 2005, 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Agreed with Satria,

Just to add a little.

Looks like a Surakarta blade with kembang kacang Nguku Bima.
Heavy wear on the 'dada', between luk 1 to 3, 3 to 5, 5 to 7 and 7 to 9.
Wear might be due to rust-removal and etching, over the years.

The ukiran (hilt) is of gaya Surakarta wanda Yudawinatan.

Tundung Mungsuh is a pamor pattern found on the 'ganja' area.
It looks like a sideways 'V'-shaped formation.
The point of the 'V'-shape is pointed toward the 'sirah cecak' area.
This pamor pattern is deemed suitable for those who are warriors.
The meaning of Tundung mungsuh in Javanese is literary 'to oust the enemy'.

BTW, this keris does not have pamor Tundung Mungsuh.

I thank you all for the valuable info. I am obliged to you.
Themis

Sepang · 9th August 2005, 01:48 PM

hai Alamshah
i believe this kind of material is much older than surakarta era. even the curve of the blade is more majapahit era than mataram , the mataram era keris curve is much deeper than majapahit , so i think i'm agree is this is a majapahit era keris.
thanks.

jor-el · 9th August 2005, 02:26 PM

Dear all,

i appreciate your help concerning my keris info. My initial on coming info is that it is majabahit or early majabahit and it has pamor tiban, difficult to be easily identified, but with ganja traces of pamor Tundhung Musuh. It means to push away (and spiritually is for protection).
Please take a look at it again and write whatever you believe it could help more. I already thank Alam Shah and Satria and Sepang for their help.

Really, Sepang for pamor and rest do you agree with the rest ones?

Themis

Alam Shah · 9th August 2005, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sepang

hai Alamshah
i believe this kind of material is much older than surakarta era. even the curve of the blade is more majapahit era than mataram , the mataram era keris curve is much deeper than majapahit , so i think i'm agree is this is a majapahit era keris.
thanks.

Hi Sepang,
In terms of defining the tangguh, I would not know the difference between a majapahit era and a mataram era piece. If you know, kindly enlighthen us.
Thanks.

jor-el · 10th August 2005, 09:02 AM

Dear all,

i keep seeing the keris and other kerises with wos wutah pamor in this site and i find many differencies in patterns. Can anybody enlighten me about it?
For example the Javanese keris of Lei Shan Dao is quite different that the one i post here...

Sorry for my ignorance...
Themis

Sepang · 10th August 2005, 04:28 PM

to define tangguh keris , we need to know the material of the blade , what kind of iron, pamor works, peksi , and luk style

the luk of this keris isn't surakarta style , ..surakata style luk is much more wavy.

and the iron of this keris is more black ... , and the iron of surakarta keris is more grey.....

and the most important is ...most of the surakarta keris has tungkaan ..at the end of the ganja.

and this keris has kuku bima style kembang kacang. none of the surakarta keris is nggelung wayang.( curve )

in my opinion , this keris is made abt .. end of majapahit era , or early mataram , senopaten

Alam Shah · 10th August 2005, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jor-el

Dear all,
i keep seeing the keris and other kerises with wos wutah pamor in this site and i find many differencies in patterns. Can anybody enlighten me about it?
For example the Javanese keris of Lei Shan Dao is quite different that the one i post here...
Themis

Wos Wutah is the most common pamor pattern in Javanese keris and tombak. In Javanese, it literally means "scattered rice".

Just imagine if you throw rice on the floor. There will always be variations.
Likewise with keris pamor. Within this pamor formation, sometimes there are other 'hidden' patterns.

Hope this makes it clearer.

Alam Shah · 10th August 2005, 05:39 PM

Dear Sepang,

My mistake...

thanks for the update.

Mans · 11th August 2005, 08:12 AM

Hai dear all,

Trully so hard for me to give my opinion at this forum because my english not too good. But I'll trying to write it,

Here I posted my keris which I think can represent of each Tangguh (estimated period).

1. Keris Majapahit (13th-early 16th century)
2. Keris Mataram Senopaten (16th century)
3. Keris Mataram Sultan Agung (early period) (17th century)
4. Keris Mataram Sultan Agung (end period / Tundung Madiun) (late 17th century)
5. Keris Pengging (18th century)
6. Keris Mataram Surokarto (18th - 19th century)

Indeed that to know the Tangguh of keris is very difficult. We should often hold and see by our self of the keris. Also we can do considering of some keris. We can see that each keris has a different characteristics that can be used to estimated about the tangguh.

Perhaps my opinion can make some confused

, but I hope it can be used for discussion in this threads and know more about the Keris, specificaly the Javanese Keris.

Regards,
Mans.

jor-el · 11th August 2005, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mans

Hai dear all,

Trully so hard for me to give my opinion at this forum because my english not too good. But I'll trying to write it,

Here I posted my keris which I think can represent of each Tangguh (estimated period).

1. Keris Majapahit (13th-early 16th century)
2. Keris Mataram Senopaten (16th century)
3. Keris Mataram Sultan Agung (early period) (17th century)
4. Keris Mataram Sultan Agung (end period / Tundung Madiun) (late 17th century)
5. Keris Pengging (18th century)
6. Keris Mataram Surokarto (18th - 19th century)

Indeed that to know the Tangguh of keris is very difficult. We should often hold and see by our self of the keris. Also we can do considering of some keris. We can see that each keris has a different characteristics that can be used to estimated about the tangguh.

Perhaps my opinion can make some confused

, but I hope it can be used for discussion in this threads and know more about the Keris, specificaly the Javanese Keris.

Regards,
Mans.

Dear Mans,

welcome to this keris talk. Which is your opinion for the pamor - dapour and rest of characteristics of the keris and which might be its spiritual power (related to the characteristics of course).

Best regards,

Themis

Mans · 11th August 2005, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jor-el

Dear Mans,

welcome to this keris talk. Which is your opinion for the pamor - dapour and rest of characteristics of the keris and which might be its spiritual power (related to the characteristics of course).

Best regards,

Themis

Indeed that the keris, specially the old keris has a spiritual power. But not all of keris. To know about the spiritual power, we should hold the keris, feel the energy and vibration of it, not just from pictures. Some people said that they can know about the energy of the keris from pictures. But I didn't think so, because the pictures bring no anything the energy of the object, can edited and can be not same with the object.

The Pamor is Wos Wutah (Strewn Rice), probably a name known to all those interested in keris. Not only for its beauty and good qualities, like another pamor, but also because of its great variety in motifs, which can easily confuse the name Beras (Wos) Wutah, when in doubt. Sometimes we can confused with pamor Pedharingan Kebak (fully of the blade) or Kulit Semongko (watermelon skin).
The Dapur called Kidang Soka.

I hope useful.
Mans.

Alam Shah · 11th August 2005, 10:06 AM

Hi Mans,

Thank you for the visual examples. It is useful to see it in pictures.

Sepang · 11th August 2005, 11:47 AM

hi alamsyah ,

why did you retract your opinion ? do you still think that it's a surakarta keris ?

Sepang · 11th August 2005, 11:49 AM

hi mans , thanks for the samples ....

so it could be made between majapahit - early mataram era... isn't it ?

Alam Shah · 11th August 2005, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sepang

hi alamshah,
why did you retract your opinion ? do you still think that it's a surakarta keris ?

Hi Sepang,
After re-reading the comments, I found that you thought I was refering to tangguh Surakarta but what I was refering to is actually made in Surakarta area. Therefore, my comments would not be relevant.

In the first place, I did mentioned that I would not know the difference between a majapahit era and a mataram era piece.

It is a good learning experience. Thank you for your responses.

Bill · 11th August 2005, 04:36 PM

Great post, Mans. Thanks for the examples. Can you offer any opinion on the iron used in your examples as well as general info on the iron used in the different periods?

Mans · 11th August 2005, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sepang

hi mans , thanks for the samples ....

so it could be made between majapahit - early mataram era... isn't it ?

Hi AlamShah & Bill,
I supposed that Themis keris made from Early Mataram Period.
Generally Majapahit keris has a slightly blade and longer gonjo called Sebit Ron Tal which has oval form at front of gonjo (Jawa = Sirah Cecak). The iron has smooth vibrous. And the other side, Keris from early Mataram period (Mataram Senopaten) also taking some characteristic of Majapahit keris, like Luk, slighty gonjo, but the iron made not too good as Majapahit keris. Commonly, Keris from early Mataram period used the full pamor pattern on the blade in order to hidding the ironwork.

But, keris from Mataram Sultan Agungan period, has the good ironwork as Majapahit period. It can be happen because at Sultan Agung period, the keris cultures was grow up. Keris from early Mataram Sultan Agungan period has characteristic as Mataram Senopaten, but the ironwork more better. It has smooth iron. Many keris was made at this period by many mPu (about 700 mPu from Kraton and the leader is mPu Supo Anom / Ki Nom). And the tehcnique of pamor and work more complicated.

End of Mataram Sultan Agungan period, the keris looks more handsome and stronger. This shape continued by mPu from Mataram Amangkurat and Surokarto period, but the blade more wider and stronger look.

Indeed that to know the tangguh (estimated period) of the keris, specially Javanese keris is too complicated, because there are too many kingdoms. Each of kingdoms bring the different characteristic on ironwork, row material, pamor and style (Jawa = Pasikutan). So that why many discussion about the Javanese keris, specifically of Tangguh was never ending. And often ending by misunderstanding.

I hope the different opinion about the keris can showing that the keris cultures has deep senses. And realy sorry if my opinion not to clear.

Best regards,
Mans.

Alam Shah · 12th August 2005, 03:57 AM

Hi Mans,
Thanks for the explanation. You've answered some of my doubts regarding majapahit and mataram era differences. As the differences are subtle, understanding of the different materials would aid to differentiate the tangguh. However an absolute answer would be difficult to derive. Therefore with only pictures, the best answer that can be achieved would be an estimated guesswork, right?

Mans · 13th August 2005, 02:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Hi Mans,
..... However an absolute answer would be difficult to derive. Therefore with only pictures, the best answer that can be achieved would be an estimated guesswork, right?

Absolutely right, Alam. Thank you.. but I always waiting for your advice at my album

Jubilado · 9th January 2006, 11:51 AM

Having just discovered this forum and thread, my thanks go to Mans and all of you for a very interesting discussion.

Can anyone, Mans perhaps? post similar guidance on the style of straight keris blades. I have one from Madura and one (supposedly) from Java, that I would like to learn more about.

Thank you for any information.

Mans · 9th January 2006, 04:42 PM

Hi Jubilado,

I think, conditions of the Keris from Madura usually more rough and heavy than the Javanese keris. The iron fibrous more clear and some iron came with many spot. Many keris from Pesisir (coastal) area usually more rough than the other. The pamor pattern of Maduranese keris more bright and coarse. The culture of Maduranese often showing their luxuries or profusion. Same as with the keris which came from there. Strong and the pamor more bright and fully on the blade. Also many pamor demostrated the high skill of the smith.
Trully, many keris with vertical technique of the pamor work came from madura.

The Javanese keris more slightly built. The iron more smooth and the iron fibrous more soft. Especially the keris from old era like Majapahit and Sedayu (about 13-15th century) and the keris from Mataram Sultan Agung period (about 17th century).

But, any keris from Madura which nearly same with Javanese Keris. Usually the keris like this came from Kraton (palace area). See the pictures #5 & 6. This is the Maduranese keris which has the characteristics as Javanese keris. But, we still can distinguishing it by the kind of pamor pattern. The pamor called Dadung Muntir and just Maduranese smith who often created the pamor like this in good conditions.

I think more detail if you see the pictures, because very difficult to me to explain it without example

Also you can see more pictures at my website (http://keris.fotopic.net). I hope useful.

Detail :
#1-2 = Keris from Madura Cakraningrat on Mataram Era (estimated made about 18th century). The pamor more smooth but the Pasikutan (characteristics) still shown the Maduranese keris.
#3-4 = Keris from Pamekasan Madura. The kingdom which vassal state of Sumenep kingdom (estimated made about 17th century).
#5-6 = Keris from Sumenep Madura which has character as Javanese keris. but the pamor shown as the Maduranese keris.
#7-8 = Javanese Keris from Majapahit Era (estimated about 15th century). The iron is very smoot. Demostrated the very high skill on ironworking.
#9-10 = Javanese keris from Mataram period (estimated made about 18th century). Demostrated the difficult pamorwork and good forging.

drdavid · 12th January 2006, 08:09 AM

Hi Mans
a very useful series of posts for a novice. I have uploaded some pictures of my first Keris purchase, described as late Mataram, from Central Jawa. It is a lovely piece to handle, both delicate and strong...strange combination of words I know but the best description I have.

Alam Shah · 12th January 2006, 10:05 AM

Hi drdavid,

Congratulation on your first keris. A fine piece, indeed. I was contemplating to get this piece but now it already have a new owner.

Soon your collection will start to grow...

This piece looks elegant with its 'simplisitic' nature. The wrongko is extra nice and stronger with the entire sheath carved from a single piece of wood.

The blade is a beautiful old piece which fits harmoniously together.

10th August 2005, 05:39 PM	#14
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Dear Sepang, My mistake... thanks for the update. Last edited by Alam Shah; 11th August 2005 at 10:19 AM.

11th August 2005, 08:12 AM	#15
Mans Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: East Java Posts: 137	Hai dear all, Trully so hard for me to give my opinion at this forum because my english not too good. But I'll trying to write it, Here I posted my keris which I think can represent of each Tangguh (estimated period). 1. Keris Majapahit (13th-early 16th century) 2. Keris Mataram Senopaten (16th century) 3. Keris Mataram Sultan Agung (early period) (17th century) 4. Keris Mataram Sultan Agung (end period / Tundung Madiun) (late 17th century) 5. Keris Pengging (18th century) 6. Keris Mataram Surokarto (18th - 19th century) Indeed that to know the Tangguh of keris is very difficult. We should often hold and see by our self of the keris. Also we can do considering of some keris. We can see that each keris has a different characteristics that can be used to estimated about the tangguh. Perhaps my opinion can make some confused , but I hope it can be used for discussion in this threads and know more about the Keris, specificaly the Javanese Keris. Regards, Mans. Attached Images

9th January 2006, 11:51 AM	#26
Jubilado Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Andalucia, Spain Posts: 3	Is there any similar information on the straight keris blade? Having just discovered this forum and thread, my thanks go to Mans and all of you for a very interesting discussion. Can anyone, Mans perhaps? post similar guidance on the style of straight keris blades. I have one from Madura and one (supposedly) from Java, that I would like to learn more about. Thank you for any information. Last edited by Jubilado; 9th January 2006 at 12:21 PM.

9th January 2006, 04:42 PM	#27
Mans Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: East Java Posts: 137	Hi Jubilado, I think, conditions of the Keris from Madura usually more rough and heavy than the Javanese keris. The iron fibrous more clear and some iron came with many spot. Many keris from Pesisir (coastal) area usually more rough than the other. The pamor pattern of Maduranese keris more bright and coarse. The culture of Maduranese often showing their luxuries or profusion. Same as with the keris which came from there. Strong and the pamor more bright and fully on the blade. Also many pamor demostrated the high skill of the smith. Trully, many keris with vertical technique of the pamor work came from madura. The Javanese keris more slightly built. The iron more smooth and the iron fibrous more soft. Especially the keris from old era like Majapahit and Sedayu (about 13-15th century) and the keris from Mataram Sultan Agung period (about 17th century). But, any keris from Madura which nearly same with Javanese Keris. Usually the keris like this came from Kraton (palace area). See the pictures #5 & 6. This is the Maduranese keris which has the characteristics as Javanese keris. But, we still can distinguishing it by the kind of pamor pattern. The pamor called Dadung Muntir and just Maduranese smith who often created the pamor like this in good conditions. I think more detail if you see the pictures, because very difficult to me to explain it without example Also you can see more pictures at my website (http://keris.fotopic.net). I hope useful. Detail : #1-2 = Keris from Madura Cakraningrat on Mataram Era (estimated made about 18th century). The pamor more smooth but the Pasikutan (characteristics) still shown the Maduranese keris. #3-4 = Keris from Pamekasan Madura. The kingdom which vassal state of Sumenep kingdom (estimated made about 17th century). #5-6 = Keris from Sumenep Madura which has character as Javanese keris. but the pamor shown as the Maduranese keris. #7-8 = Javanese Keris from Majapahit Era (estimated about 15th century). The iron is very smoot. Demostrated the very high skill on ironworking. #9-10 = Javanese keris from Mataram period (estimated made about 18th century). Demostrated the difficult pamorwork and good forging. Attached Images

12th January 2006, 08:09 AM	#28
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 371	Hi Mans a very useful series of posts for a novice. I have uploaded some pictures of my first Keris purchase, described as late Mataram, from Central Jawa. It is a lovely piece to handle, both delicate and strong...strange combination of words I know but the best description I have. Attached Images

8th August 2005, 08:24 AM	#1
jor-el Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 17	Keris info Dear all, i would like firstly to congratulate you all for the very good site you have here. I 've seen a lot of people here with much knowledge in keris and because i recently have one, i would like your help with its characteristics (pamor-dapour etc.). If it is possible to help me with its age and the pamor spiritual power i'll owe you. Best regards, Themis Attached Images

8th August 2005, 12:10 PM	#2
Satria Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 11	I think the information of your keris is : Dapur : Kidang Soka with ganja wilut Pamor : Wos wutah Tangguh : I don't sure which era of your keris because not on hold. But in my opinion is 75% old keris. If my opinion is mistake, please another members correct me.

8th August 2005, 12:20 PM	#3
jor-el Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 17	Thank you for your opinion Satria. I was told that it is early 14th centrury (early Majabahit) and with pamor for protection. BR, Themis

8th August 2005, 03:35 PM	#4
jor-el Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 17	If somebody has another opinion please feel free to write it. Even if you have the same one. Themis

8th August 2005, 08:14 PM	#5
jor-el Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 17	Does anybody know what kind is pamor Tundhung Musuh? Does anybody have pictures with a keris with this pamor? BR, Themis

9th August 2005, 01:48 PM	#8
Sepang Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 33	hai Alamshah i believe this kind of material is much older than surakarta era. even the curve of the blade is more majapahit era than mataram , the mataram era keris curve is much deeper than majapahit , so i think i'm agree is this is a majapahit era keris. thanks.

9th August 2005, 02:26 PM	#9
jor-el Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 17	Dear all, i appreciate your help concerning my keris info. My initial on coming info is that it is majabahit or early majabahit and it has pamor tiban, difficult to be easily identified, but with ganja traces of pamor Tundhung Musuh. It means to push away (and spiritually is for protection). Please take a look at it again and write whatever you believe it could help more. I already thank Alam Shah and Satria and Sepang for their help. Really, Sepang for pamor and rest do you agree with the rest ones? Themis

10th August 2005, 09:02 AM	#11
jor-el Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 17	Dear all, i keep seeing the keris and other kerises with wos wutah pamor in this site and i find many differencies in patterns. Can anybody enlighten me about it? For example the Javanese keris of Lei Shan Dao is quite different that the one i post here... Sorry for my ignorance... Themis

10th August 2005, 04:28 PM	#12
Sepang Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 33	to define tangguh keris , we need to know the material of the blade , what kind of iron, pamor works, peksi , and luk style the luk of this keris isn't surakarta style , ..surakata style luk is much more wavy. and the iron of this keris is more black ... , and the iron of surakarta keris is more grey..... and the most important is ...most of the surakarta keris has tungkaan ..at the end of the ganja. and this keris has kuku bima style kembang kacang. none of the surakarta keris is nggelung wayang.( curve ) in my opinion , this keris is made abt .. end of majapahit era , or early mataram , senopaten

11th August 2005, 10:06 AM	#18
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Hi Mans, Thank you for the visual examples. It is useful to see it in pictures.

11th August 2005, 11:47 AM	#19
Sepang Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 33	hi alamsyah , why did you retract your opinion ? do you still think that it's a surakarta keris ?

11th August 2005, 11:49 AM	#20
Sepang Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 33	hi mans , thanks for the samples .... so it could be made between majapahit - early mataram era... isn't it ?

11th August 2005, 04:36 PM	#22
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Great post, Mans. Thanks for the examples. Can you offer any opinion on the iron used in your examples as well as general info on the iron used in the different periods?

12th August 2005, 03:57 AM	#24
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Hi Mans, Thanks for the explanation. You've answered some of my doubts regarding majapahit and mataram era differences. As the differences are subtle, understanding of the different materials would aid to differentiate the tangguh. However an absolute answer would be difficult to derive. Therefore with only pictures, the best answer that can be achieved would be an estimated guesswork, right?

12th January 2006, 10:05 AM	#29
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Nice piece... Hi drdavid, Congratulation on your first keris. A fine piece, indeed. I was contemplating to get this piece but now it already have a new owner. Soon your collection will start to grow... This piece looks elegant with its 'simplisitic' nature. The wrongko is extra nice and stronger with the entire sheath carved from a single piece of wood. The blade is a beautiful old piece which fits harmoniously together.