Keris Bali

brekele · 26th October 2008, 10:53 PM

Keris Bali for comment
The keris blade it seem not too old but nice

Stil no idea what kind of dapur

Blade length 45 cm.

David · 27th October 2008, 04:18 AM

Beautiful dress.
As for dhapur, you are probably safe making up your own name here is you feel you need one. This appears to be a new "creative" design.

A. G. Maisey · 27th October 2008, 05:04 AM

How about:-

naga angsa luk sembilan ??

brekele · 27th October 2008, 07:12 AM

How about angsa nyosor luk 9 ??

A. G. Maisey · 27th October 2008, 10:50 PM

I don't think we can have a verb as a dhapur name, Brekele.

We could probably call it "cucuk angsa luk songo" ( nine wave swan --or goose-- beak), if we wanted to give it a Javanese name.

But since it is a modern creation it is probably more politically correct to give it an Indonesian, rather than a Javanese name, so then we could call it "paruh angsa luk sembilan" (means the same thing).

But I don't think we could call it "angsa nyorsor":- "to peck by a goose". Actually since it is a swan (which is the same name as a goose in Javanese and Indonesian) "pecked by a goose" would be "kesosor" ( the 'angsa' is understood) or in the past, "disosor angsa".

Newsteel · 28th October 2008, 02:39 AM

Nice new keris there. But I am wondering what did the maker trying to express or signify by using goose or maybe swan on his keris.

David · 28th October 2008, 04:21 AM

I would say that it is undoubtably a swan. Swans have significance in many cultures, even the Hindi vedic scriptures. But this may well be aimed a a Western market. Hard to say. Scroll down for some swan mythology

:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swan

Battara · 28th October 2008, 04:38 AM

Noticed that the hilt is Hanuman - is it solid silver?

Also, Brahman is known to ride a swan....

Newsteel · 28th October 2008, 05:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I would say that it is undoubtably a swan. Swans have significance in many cultures, even the Hindi vedic scriptures. But this may well be aimed a a Western market. Hard to say. Scroll down for some swan mythology

:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swan

Thanks David. Abstracted from that wiki given.

"Swans are revered in many religions and cultures, especially Hinduism. The Sanskrit word for swan is hamsa or hansa, and it is the vehicle of many deities like the goddess Saraswati. It is mentioned several times in the Vedic literature, and persons who have attained great spiritual capabilities are sometimes called Paramahamsa ("Great Swan") on account of their spiritual grace and ability to travel between various spiritual worlds. In the Vedas, swans are said to reside in the summer on Lake Manasarovar and migrate to Indian lakes for the winter, eat pearls, and separate milk from water in a mixture of both. Hindu iconography typically shows the Mute Swan. It is wrongly supposed by many historians that the word hamsa only refers to a goose, since today swans are no longer found in India, not even in most zoos. However, ornithological checklists clearly classify several species of swans as vagrant birds in India."

Also learned that a swan is described in Hindu mysticism as possessing the unique faculty of separating pure milk from a mixture of milk and water. It is reputed to have the ability to draw the milk alone and leave the water behind. Similarly does a man of Realization move about in the world recognizing the one divinity in the pluralistic phenomena of the world.

brekele · 28th October 2008, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I don't think we can have a verb as a dhapur name, Brekele.

We could probably call it "cucuk angsa luk songo" ( nine wave swan --or goose-- beak), if we wanted to give it a Javanese name.

But since it is a modern creation it is probably more politically correct to give it an Indonesian, rather than a Javanese name, so then we could call it "paruh angsa luk sembilan" (means the same thing).

But I don't think we could call it "angsa nyorsor":- "to peck by a goose". Actually since it is a swan (which is the same name as a goose in Javanese and Indonesian) "pecked by a goose" would be "kesosor" ( the 'angsa' is understood) or in the past, "disosor angsa".

Your corection is right Alan. Paruh angsa luk sembilan is sound better.

A. G. Maisey · 28th October 2008, 07:55 AM

Well there we are:- we've got a new dhapur.

Dunno if Kraton Surakarta would accept it.

Probably OK in Kraton Warkoker though.

(Kraton Warkoker:- Kraton Warung Kopi Keris---Indonesians love acronyms)

Re the swan:- I reckon the maker was trying to express his need for recognition by the mighty god Duit---yeah, I know, I'm a cynic.

Mamat Lombok · 15th September 2009, 04:54 AM

dear Mr.Brekele...The Swan symbol in bali / lombok called SARASWATI ( one of Hindhu's GOD ) , i also collect luk 9 Saraswati in silver design with Kojongan / sandang walikat scabbard

A. G. Maisey · 15th September 2009, 05:35 AM

I don't think that is quite correct Mamat Lombok.

Saraswati is certainly one of the Hindu deities who are accepted in the Bali Hindu faith, and she is regarded as the deity associated with knowledge.

She is not synonymous with the swan, and the swan does not represent her, nor is the swan one of her attributes, however, in religious art Saraswati is often shown with a swan near her feet. In mainline Hindu belief the holy swan represents discrimination between good and evil.

There is certainly an association between Saraswati and the holy swan, but I still feel that a swan as a keris motif is a very recent commercial addition.

Still, this is only nitpicking. Your keris also is a very nice piece, whatever its origins or associations.

Alam Shah · 15th September 2009, 05:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Well there we are:- we've got a new dhapur.

Dunno if Kraton Surakarta would accept it.
Probably OK in Kraton Warkoker though.

(Kraton Warkoker:- Kraton Warung Kopi Keris---Indonesians love acronyms)

Re the swan:- I reckon the maker was trying to express his need for recognition by the mighty god Duit---yeah, I know, I'm a cynic.

Hi Alan,
Nice name..

Since this is a Balinese blade, does it makes a different if Kraton Surakarta accept it or not?

Alam Shah · 15th September 2009, 05:42 AM

Both keris presented here are nicely made. Thanks for sharing.

Personally, the wan doesn't appeal to me in keris context.. As for the aesthetics and shape of the blade, it sort-of 'disturb' the flow and elegance of the blade.. to my eyes anyway.

asomotif · 15th September 2009, 07:34 AM

Quote:

recognition by the mighty god Duit---

Mmm..

In dutch language, "duit" is an old word for "coin"
Was the maker going for the money

Nice keris btw.

A. G. Maisey · 15th September 2009, 10:04 AM

Alam Shah, about half the time I'm dead serious, the other half is split between being facetious and being more or less relaxed.

Of course it makes no difference if Surakarta accepts it or not, and in all honesty it makes no difference if any of the pura in Bali accept it or not. It is a modern piece of very nice art work.In fact both blades are.

What is important is if the current generation of keris fanciers, collectors and wearers accept it or not. Its not traditional, and I can see your point Alam Shah when you say it disturbs the flow, but personally I rather like the motif, execution, and idea.

What annoys me with any motif used in a keris blade is if it is poorly executed. I'm not at all adverse to new ideas. The keris has changed throughout its existence, and this is a strength that has allowed it to survive.But I detest ugliness.

"Duit" has come into Indonesian as one of the words for money.

26th October 2008, 10:53 PM	#1
brekele Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 208	Keris Bali Keris Bali for comment The keris blade it seem not too old but nice Stil no idea what kind of dapur Blade length 45 cm. Attached Images

15th September 2009, 04:54 AM	#12
Mamat Lombok Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: lombok-indonesia Posts: 66	saraswati dear Mr.Brekele...The Swan symbol in bali / lombok called SARASWATI ( one of Hindhu's GOD ) , i also collect luk 9 Saraswati in silver design with Kojongan / sandang walikat scabbard Attached Images

15th September 2009, 05:42 AM	#15
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Both keris presented here are nicely made. Thanks for sharing. Personally, the wan doesn't appeal to me in keris context.. As for the aesthetics and shape of the blade, it sort-of 'disturb' the flow and elegance of the blade.. to my eyes anyway. Last edited by Alam Shah; 15th September 2009 at 08:02 AM.

27th October 2008, 04:18 AM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,121	Beautiful dress. As for dhapur, you are probably safe making up your own name here is you feel you need one. This appears to be a new "creative" design.

27th October 2008, 05:04 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	How about:- naga angsa luk sembilan ??

27th October 2008, 07:12 AM	#4
brekele Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 208	How about angsa nyosor luk 9 ??

27th October 2008, 10:50 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	I don't think we can have a verb as a dhapur name, Brekele. We could probably call it "cucuk angsa luk songo" ( nine wave swan --or goose-- beak), if we wanted to give it a Javanese name. But since it is a modern creation it is probably more politically correct to give it an Indonesian, rather than a Javanese name, so then we could call it "paruh angsa luk sembilan" (means the same thing). But I don't think we could call it "angsa nyorsor":- "to peck by a goose". Actually since it is a swan (which is the same name as a goose in Javanese and Indonesian) "pecked by a goose" would be "kesosor" ( the 'angsa' is understood) or in the past, "disosor angsa".

28th October 2008, 02:39 AM	#6
Newsteel Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 132	Nice new keris there. But I am wondering what did the maker trying to express or signify by using goose or maybe swan on his keris.

28th October 2008, 04:21 AM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,121	I would say that it is undoubtably a swan. Swans have significance in many cultures, even the Hindi vedic scriptures. But this may well be aimed a a Western market. Hard to say. Scroll down for some swan mythology : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swan

28th October 2008, 04:38 AM	#8
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Noticed that the hilt is Hanuman - is it solid silver? Also, Brahman is known to ride a swan....

28th October 2008, 07:55 AM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	Well there we are:- we've got a new dhapur. Dunno if Kraton Surakarta would accept it. Probably OK in Kraton Warkoker though. (Kraton Warkoker:- Kraton Warung Kopi Keris---Indonesians love acronyms) Re the swan:- I reckon the maker was trying to express his need for recognition by the mighty god Duit---yeah, I know, I'm a cynic.

15th September 2009, 05:35 AM	#13
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	I don't think that is quite correct Mamat Lombok. Saraswati is certainly one of the Hindu deities who are accepted in the Bali Hindu faith, and she is regarded as the deity associated with knowledge. She is not synonymous with the swan, and the swan does not represent her, nor is the swan one of her attributes, however, in religious art Saraswati is often shown with a swan near her feet. In mainline Hindu belief the holy swan represents discrimination between good and evil. There is certainly an association between Saraswati and the holy swan, but I still feel that a swan as a keris motif is a very recent commercial addition. Still, this is only nitpicking. Your keris also is a very nice piece, whatever its origins or associations.

15th September 2009, 10:04 AM	#17
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	Alam Shah, about half the time I'm dead serious, the other half is split between being facetious and being more or less relaxed. Of course it makes no difference if Surakarta accepts it or not, and in all honesty it makes no difference if any of the pura in Bali accept it or not. It is a modern piece of very nice art work.In fact both blades are. What is important is if the current generation of keris fanciers, collectors and wearers accept it or not. Its not traditional, and I can see your point Alam Shah when you say it disturbs the flow, but personally I rather like the motif, execution, and idea. What annoys me with any motif used in a keris blade is if it is poorly executed. I'm not at all adverse to new ideas. The keris has changed throughout its existence, and this is a strength that has allowed it to survive.But I detest ugliness. "Duit" has come into Indonesian as one of the words for money.