Finally worth getting at 5am

[dooly]

Hi all .. new to this form .. I collect and restore old English shotguns and collect old bottles and pottery .. so i set off on my usual run round the car boot sales and the last thing on my mind as i wandered around with not a item found at 6am .. then i spotted a dealer with what seamed like a "modern" Flint lock pistol screwed to a piece of floor board .. he said to the lady it was a modern copy which had been made to look old and was not worth here asking price .. when she would not budge on the price he put it back under the table .. i then picked it up and had a good look at it and it just felt right .. so a quick haggle and it was mine .. it was in a very bad state but once i had the board off it looked to me like it could date from 1840-50s if it was English .. but it was covered in an "Islamic" text .. so still not sure .. so i was wondering if someone hear can help me with the translation .. date .. and what it should look like as i am now going to strip and rebuild it .. would it be Blued or browned at this period

all the best and thanks .. more pictures to follow off the restoration project

[Atlantia]

Fantastic! What a thing to find. I was just saying in the display thread about the terrible things people used to do to 'display' old weapons.
welcome to the forums BTW.
Just concertrate on the woodwork. Leave the metal with the nice aged look that it's got (IMHO).

Best
Gene

[A.alnakkas]

Such a beauty, congratulations. Welcome to the forum :-)

Post some pictures of the inscription and I think we'll get it translated soon enough.

[dooly]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Such a beauty, congratulations. Welcome to the forum :-)

Post some pictures of the inscription and I think we'll get it translated soon enough.

Thanks for the warm welcome

i have attached pictures of the text .. hope you can help

[dooly]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Fantastic! What a thing to find. I was just saying in the display thread about the terrible things people used to do to 'display' old weapons.
welcome to the forums BTW.
Just concertrate on the woodwork. Leave the metal with the nice aged look that it's got (IMHO).

Best
Gene

Whoops sorry .. had to be done when i saw the state of it inside ..

check out the state of the wood when i opened her up

[dooly]

More "yuck" photos

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by dooly

Whoops sorry .. had to be done when i saw the state of it inside ..

check out the state of the wood when i opened her up

Hi Dooly

I know the damage is mostly modern, but often we see repairs and filled areas on these 'ethnic' guns. I would say that you have either the option of replacing the woodwork, or repairing it with infill and replaced areas.
Whats your plan?
Best
Gene

[dooly]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Hi Dooly

I know the damage is mostly modern, but often we see repairs and filled areas on these 'ethnic' guns. I would say that you have either the option of replacing the woodwork, or repairing it with infill and replaced areas.
Whats your plan?
Best
Gene

Hi .. I do restore my guns .. but i try to be sensitive And the wood work on this one could not be saved .. almost fell to bits in my hands.

I have attached a couple of pictures of a early hammer gun which was found in a farmers shed a few weeks ago .. totally rusted solid and the stock was snapped and rotten .. this is where i am at with it at the moment .. i have decided to "rainbow" the metal on this one and the hammers will be browned .. the stock is in the oversize stage and needs lightning once all the metal work has been fitted .. the wood is steamed beach and will be stained the the correct color once completed .. Luckily the Farmer had stuffed the barrels with oily rags before dumping it in the shed and the barrels are still in proof so hopefully this season it may bag a bird or two for the pot

[dooly]

Now stripped and initial dip done

[dooly]

Well all done bar the barrel .. looks like the lettering was silvered or something .. will think about what to do with it ..

all barricaded now just let the oil soak in and next the stock .. still need to work out if i should make it with a ramrod holder .. what do you think

[Nathaniel]

Hello Dooly,

Welcome to the forum!!

Nice post. It is quite interesting to see your documentation of the restoration. It is neat to see metal parts separate from the wooden stock. Thank you. I'm looking forward to seeing how it will progress. I'm curious if you where able to identify the type of wood originally used and what type of wood will you use then for the replacement?

Thanks!

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by dooly

Well all done bar the barrel .. looks like the lettering was silvered or something .. will think about what to do with it ..

all barricaded now just let the oil soak in and next the stock .. still need to work out if i should make it with a ramrod holder .. what do you think

If for instance it's Ottoman, then it may well not have had a ramrod (or have had a short 'false' one). Is there a recess on the original part of the stock in front of the trigger guard?

I'm suprised nobody has come in with an opinion of origin. I was thinking Ottoman?
What have you done so far? Cleaned with an etchant, and browned with heat and oil?

[stephen wood]

...I think the writing is Arabic - acid etched thuluth script.

[dooly]

Originally Posted by Nathaniel

Hello Dooly,

Welcome to the forum!!

Nice post. It is quite interesting to see your documentation of the restoration. It is neat to see metal parts separate from the wooden stock. Thank you. I'm looking forward to seeing how it will progress. I'm curious if you where able to identify the type of wood originally used and what type of wood will you use then for the replacement?

Thanks!

Thanks . not 100% on the wood as i dont think it was the original stock .. seemed to be a type of hardwood. it may have been made form an old English stock as it is simmiler grain to one of my 1870s shotguns.. for replacement i may try to use one of my old gun stocks .. or steamed beech which i will stain down .. this depends on the ramrod/no ramrod question .. and the thickness of wood required

all the best

[dooly]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

If for instance it's Ottoman, then it may well not have had a ramrod (or have had a short 'false' one). Is there a recess on the original part of the stock in front of the trigger guard?

I'm suprised nobody has come in with an opinion of origin. I was thinking Ottoman?
What have you done so far? Cleaned with an etchant, and browned with heat and oil?

hi thanks for the response .. The script is very similer to "ottoman" coins i have in my collection .. but they have been no help to me..
Rust and blue removing solution then heat and plum brown with fast cooling then barricade oiling .. i have also spent the last couple of hours hand blueing the barrel .. to late to do pictures tonight and it is in the proofing oil .. will sort a picture out tomorrow .. then i guess i will start looking for the wood for the stock .. thanks for the response

all the best

[dooly]

Originally Posted by stephen wood

...I think the writing is Arabic - acid etched thuluth script.

thanks for the link i can see what you mean .. i was thinking it was Scriptures or something simmiler..

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by dooly

thanks for the link i can see what you mean .. i was thinking it was Scriptures or something simmiler..

Hello Dooly. Welcome to the Forum from a collector (and shooter) of antique Middle Eastern firearms. Sorry to hear about the stock. But it sounds like it was worth the purchase just to aquire the metal parts. Should be an interesting project. At first glance, looks Ottoman. But there are others on this forum that are knowledgable about the writings. As another said, most Ottoman pistols were made with what we call a "false" ramrod. Or no ramrod. They were usually loaded with a seperate metal rod called a Suma. I've never really understood why they would bother with a false ramrod? Anyway, welcome to the Forum!! Rick.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by dooly

Hi .. I do restore my guns .. but i try to be sensitive And the wood work on this one could not be saved .. almost fell to bits in my hands.

I have attached a couple of pictures of a early hammer gun which was found in a farmers shed a few weeks ago .. totally rusted solid and the stock was snapped and rotten .. this is where i am at with it at the moment .. i have decided to "rainbow" the metal on this one and the hammers will be browned .. the stock is in the oversize stage and needs lightning once all the metal work has been fitted .. the wood is steamed beach and will be stained the the correct color once completed .. Luckily the Farmer had stuffed the barrels with oily rags before dumping it in the shed and the barrels are still in proof so hopefully this season it may bag a bird or two for the pot

IMHO get rid of the "rainbow". Obviously done with heat. English locks of this age were not as far as I am aware "case coloured", so need to be browned to match the hammers. Similarly all other metal should be browned. Vintage looks about 1880.

[kahnjar1]

Having given my 2c worth above, WELCOME TO THE FORUM. That Islamic pistol looks magnificent, and well done with the restoration of the metal parts. By the looks of it, the woodwork is totally munted but IF it can be rebuilt with careful use of pieces of correct coloured wood and filler, then that IMHO would be preferable to a completely new stock.
Stuart

[Jim McDougall]

Welcome Dooly!
Nicely done on photos and showing the progression of your restoration work, which is outstanding and thank you for giving these worn old weapons the chance they deserve to be properly preserved.

The dealer you observed was clearly 'working it!' and I'm glad you got this instead of him

The acid etched script on the barrel is Islamic calligraphy known as 'thuluth' and seen characteristically in the Sudan on weapons during the Mahdiyya period in the latter 19th century. This was also known in Ottoman regions in Egypt and others in degree, though it had been largely been superceded elsewhere in Islamic inscriptions of Qur'anic verse by the Naskhi script.

This appears to be a trade produced flintlock made in the English style and the pistol is mounted in a style which appears much in Balkan style with the sharply angled neck and butt. These were often produced for native consumption , and these type guns were entering Cairo centers, often cheaply made in Leige in the 1870s or so. Apparantly mostly muskets were coming in, but it would seem flintlock pistols did as well in some degree.
The thuluth etching on this barrel suggests the pistol may have been handled during Mahdiyya times (c. 1884-1898) but as these were not commonly used by these forces, it is possible this may have been a special case issue or award.
The absence of the ramrod suggests also Ottoman style in the gun, as with them their pistols' ramrods (suma) were carried on belts.

Probably some interesting history with this one, and quite possibly some intriguing potential as a weapon from Egypt or the Sudan end of the 19th century.

References:
"Firearms of the Islamic World" Robert Elgood, London, 1995, p.224

Other good references regarding the British military pistols;
"British Military Pistols" Robert E. Brooker, 1978

I hope you will be restoring the stock from illustrations of the original as these trade anomalies were by no means standard, and it would be good to see this one kept faithful to the original. The locks were simply copies of the British ones, which were often reused of course.
Your work on the weapon as shown to date is superb!!!

All the best,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

More thoughts:

Looking further at this pistol, I am more convinced of the associations to Ottoman style, and possibilities of Leige production for trade. Apparantly in Robert Elgood's "Arms of Greece,and Her Balkan Neignbors in the Ottoman Era" (London, 2009) , pistols with corresponding stock form are shown with an example noted from Brno (Czechoslakia) 19th c. While this was in Moravian regions part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire to cross influence into Ottoman regions in the Balkans was of course inevitable.

While trade grade weapons were being produced in various regions for the Ottomans, it does seem that Leige, in Belgium was also competing. Elgood notes in footnotes on p.224 (#15) that Burckhardt ("Travels in Nubia", London, 1822) had described brisk trade in sword blades from Solingen being sold in Cairo, and that 50 years later (i.e.1870s) there were cheap percussion guns from Belgium being sold in Cairo and traded into the slave trade markets in Shendy. While these were usually muskets, and obviously percussion, it is a good indicator that Belgian trade weapons were being received in Cairo (under Ottoman suzerainty) earlier and probably the flintlock type weapons as well. Other references have noted trade weapons from Belgium being traded in Cairo to slave traders from Darfur and Wadi in these times.

It is worthy of note that the use of flintlock guns remained in favor in remote native regions and colonial spheres for a considerable time after the advent of the percussion lock, primarily because it was far easier to obtain flints than percussion caps, as is my understanding.

With these weapons moving southward with slave traders, it would not be surprising to see a pistol of trade quality receiving this thuluth decoration and being used by an individual of some significance in tribal standing in these times of the Mahdiyya.

As always, looking forward to hearing more on this from those with knowledge on these kinds of firearms, whom I know are out there!! . For further reference, the best reference on Balkan firearms is Robert Elgood's by far.

In any case, I hope what I have found is of interest thus far.

Best regards,
Jim

[dooly]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

IMHO get rid of the "rainbow". Obviously done with heat. English locks of this age were not as far as I am aware "case coloured", so need to be browned to match the hammers. Similarly all other metal should be browned. Vintage looks about 1880.

Yes the rainbow .. was an optional extra i liked .. it came about when i was heating the springs for re-fitting .. you do get a few which were colored at this period but usually top end guns .. the workings are by Stanton & Co .. and the retailer is R.W Richards .. who i have not been able to find (i dont have the London book) but i would also put it about that date

thanks for the comments .. i should post some of my completed projects sometime

[dooly]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

More thoughts:

Looking further at this pistol, I am more convinced of the associations to Ottoman style, and possibilities of Leige production for trade. Apparantly in Robert Elgood's "Arms of Greece,and Her Balkan Neignbors in the Ottoman Era" (London, 2009) , pistols with corresponding stock form are shown with an example noted from Brno (Czechoslakia) 19th c. While this was in Moravian regions part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire to cross influence into Ottoman regions in the Balkans was of course inevitable.

While trade grade weapons were being produced in various regions for the Ottomans, it does seem that Leige, in Belgium was also competing. Elgood notes in footnotes on p.224 (#15) that Burckhardt ("Travels in Nubia", London, 1822) had described brisk trade in sword blades from Solingen being sold in Cairo, and that 50 years later (i.e.1870s) there were cheap percussion guns from Belgium being sold in Cairo and traded into the slave trade markets in Shendy. While these were usually muskets, and obviously percussion, it is a good indicator that Belgian trade weapons were being received in Cairo (under Ottoman suzerainty) earlier and probably the flintlock type weapons as well. Other references have noted trade weapons from Belgium being traded in Cairo to slave traders from Darfur and Wadi in these times.

It is worthy of note that the use of flintlock guns remained in favor in remote native regions and colonial spheres for a considerable time after the advent of the percussion lock, primarily because it was far easier to obtain flints than percussion caps, as is my understanding.

With these weapons moving southward with slave traders, it would not be surprising to see a pistol of trade quality receiving this thuluth decoration and being used by an individual of some significance in tribal standing in these times of the Mahdiyya.

As always, looking forward to hearing more on this from those with knowledge on these kinds of firearms, whom I know are out there!! . For further reference, the best reference on Balkan firearms is Robert Elgood's by far.

In any case, I hope what I have found is of interest thus far.

Best regards,
Jim

Brilliant just brilliant thanks for the hard work you have put in what great information .. and is showing what a history and sites this gun must of seen .. the information re the stock is just the pointers i needed for a sensitive restoration .. I poped into my local wood man today and could not find anything worthy today .. i have another avenue to go down tomorrow .. lets see what they have in

Ps .. I do a lot of Metal detecting hear in the UK and have lots of musket balls which would fit the gun so i may make a box and keep them all together .. also when detecting i have found some "of the period" musket flints and i could fit one to the gun when completed .. we also find Lead flint holders for them .. Question is what would they have used in the country the gun was used, Lead / Leather / felt ??

Pps .. I have also found some Neolithic Arrow heads and tools .. would people on this forum appreciate seeing photos of that type of stuff ?

thanks again

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by dooly

Yes the rainbow .. was an optional extra i liked .. it came about when i was heating the springs for re-fitting .. you do get a few which were colored at this period but usually top end guns .. the workings are by Stanton & Co .. and the retailer is R.W Richards .. who i have not been able to find (i dont have the London book) but i would also put it about that date

thanks for the comments .. i should post some of my completed projects sometime

Dooley: Great job refurbishing the metal parts. Well worth a re-stock. By all means, please post photos. I have a Caucasian pistol project just completed that I will post this weekend. And an interesting story with it.

Jim: Thanks for all the GREAT information!!! Rick.

[dooly]

Hear you go .. a couple of shots of the hand bluing .. I think another 4 or so coats and it will be ready to buff it up

the second is of one of the flints i have found field walking ..

all the best

[rickystl]

Very cool !!! That barrel is beautiful. Thanks for the pic.

[Jim McDougall]

Dooly and Ricky, you're very welcome, and it was truly my pleasure to learn from this example and share what I found. That really is was this forum is all about and I really appreciate you guys' input.

The arrowheads topic is most interesting but there are sincere concerns about compromising archaeological sites and potentially important finds without proper protocol. We are interesting in weaponry from all times and thier history as long as these perameters are observed.

Again, its really great what you guys are doing with these old guns! and please keep us posted with progress.

All the very best,
Jim

[dooly]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Dooly and Ricky, you're very welcome, and it was truly my pleasure to learn from this example and share what I found. That really is was this forum is all about and I really appreciate you guys' input.

The arrowheads topic is most interesting but there are sincere concerns about compromising archaeological sites and potentially important finds without proper protocol. We are interesting in weaponry from all times and thier history as long as these perameters are observed.

Again, its really great what you guys are doing with these old guns! and please keep us posted with progress.

All the very best,
Jim

Hi Jim .. just a note on the arrow heads and tools i find .. hear in Northumberland .. all my finds are handed over to the finds leasion officer at the Hancock museum in Newcastle who records the site of the find (my metal ones as well) on a national data base .. so far i have found 9 unrecorded sites of neolithic activity and 6 Roman sites .. there is very little information from this high up in Northumberland and Rob is very happy when he sees stuff from up hear .. .. I have some videos on youtube if anyone is interested under doolybottleking .. why not have a lookin some time ..
PS all my digging and detecting is with the landowners permission !!!

Now back to the gun .. well my timber man did not let me down .. I have attached a couple of pictures of the bit (1 meter) of Cameroon Sapele i have chosen for the gun .. (the timber is FAS registered). I think this is as close as i can get to a appropriate re stocking timber for this gun ..

link to the tree
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapele

Now the next hard bit .. pick the bit to cut out the new stock out .. !!!

[rickystl]

Question is what would they have used in the country the gun was used, Lead / Leather / felt ??

Lead for the jaws was usually issued to European and American military troops. But not exclusively. I would think that leather and fabric (maybe thick felt) would be more plentiful in that part of the World. But I'm only guessing. One of the questions that comes up with Middle Eastern flintlock type guns is why the mainsprings are so strong compared to their European counterparts. Their are a couple therories. But the one that makes most sense to me is that the "quality" of flint in that Region was simply not as good as English black or French amber flint.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Dooly,
Thank you for the notes on your activities in locating these neolithic finds, and especially for handling these matters so responsibly. My mention was of course intended as a reminder to general readership that archaeological sites are so fragile in the sense of preserving data, that following proper protocol, just as you have illustrated is truly a must, and deeply appreciated. Thank you so much.
That having been said, it would truly be interesting to see these. There is so much history up there, and I am always fascinated when news items herald new finds and information.

Great news on the timber!!! please keep us posted, and this pistol is gonna look great!!

All the best,
Jim