Hussar saber

FRANCOIS · 28th August 2022, 01:46 PM

Hello,
I have this 18th hussar saber. It's for me a austro hungarian saber but i'd like to specify his origin.
There's no mark except CA.

fernando · 28th August 2022, 05:48 PM

Welcome to the forum, François

.
Let us see what the members think of your nice saber.

FRANCOIS · 28th August 2022, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Welcome to the forum, François

.
Let us see what the members think of your nice saber.

Thanks Fernando

I have others pictures

What is the origine of this saber, I don''t know the mark CA
Thanks in advance

Radboud · 28th August 2022, 09:50 PM

Neat looking sword and not my area of familiarity so make of my observations what you will, but there are a couple of points of concern for me:

1. Looking at how the fullers continue to the tip, it looks like the blade might have been shortened.
2. Your third photo shows what looks like a seam from a mould on the langet; on an original, you'd expect this to have been polished away.
3. The Turks' head engraving feels 'flat'. Difficult to describe, but the originals have more 'spark' to them.
4. The clean, deep CA stamp doesn't match with the late 18th Century style engraved Turks' head decoration.

Victrix · 29th August 2022, 10:33 AM

Interesting looking sword. It seems to be a combination of styles. The lion pommel, wired grip, and rounded langets is reminiscent of the Austro-Hungarian Prima Plana infantry sabres. The forward curved cross guards are reminiscent of 17thC. The stirrup shaped knuckle guard is reminiscent of 18thC sabre. The scabbard is curiously flat in shape. The brass details don’t look naturally aged. There’s no indentation at the mouth to fit the langets of the sword. The only ring to fasten the scabbard is at the mouth so presumably it’s supposed to be worn from a belt in infantry fashion?

FRANCOIS · 29th August 2022, 11:42 AM

it's a cavalry saber, the blade is long and wide;but it's the first time I see this suspension system (except for infantry of course), maybe a request from its owner. the guard is not common. I do not know how to locate and date this saber

Jim McDougall · 29th August 2022, 02:50 PM

I agree with Victrix, this saber is an anomaly in its fusion of various element styles, as well as unusual scabbard in its suspension, which should be the usual rings. These were usual worn slung from the side, which was of course the purpose of the drag on the scabbard chape as these were often low slung when dismounted.

The scrolled quillon terminals on the guard are most unusual as actually there would only be one, while the knuckle guard extended into the cross guard and needed no such fixture at the base. This vestigial terminal is most odd.

The sword overall does not correspond to anything I can find in references on Austro-Hungarian swords, but I agree, there seems in inclination toward that influence.

The blade too is unusual in the channels and the fuller extending to the point, recalling in a sense the blades with heavier distal features often including yelman to add weight and impetus to slashing cuts.
However, the unusually crisp CA poincon is not like anything I have seen on blade markings of 18th c. nor are the shape of the letters.

The etched markings on the blade are nicely fashioned resembling the 'oriental occult' style motif often applied to French blades of 'caissagnard decoration' which seem to have been applied in Nantes locations from mid to latter 18th c. Some this style decoration seems used in other countries as well in similar manner, including of course Eastern Europe.

Which brings to mind that there were elements of cavalry in the French army from Austro-Hungarian origin, which seem to have evolved perhaps from the 'pandour' forces which created notable interest to the French.
Here I would note that the unusual fluted langet resembles certain small sword styling of French origin in the late 18th c. which was seen on the heavier officers versions of these.

As officers of course commissioned their own swords and had them privately made by cutlers and outfitters, it does not seem surprising that these kinds of unusually appointed swords would exist. With that in mind, and that officers often were in the service of other countries, the influences of any number of sources might be at hand.

Whatever the case, an extremely attractive saber!

Radboud · 29th August 2022, 08:29 PM

The Turks head is a frequently encountered decoration on late 18th Century blades, seen on swords from many nations. This of course does not preclude that the sword blades were all sourced from the same centre of production; Solingen.

Regarding Caissagnard, his blades mostly sport the same three motifs; the sword arm from clouds, smiling sun and the man in the moon as seen in the attached photo. We don’t know if Caissagnard ordered his blades like this or did the decoration himself.

The second photo is from a 1788 Pattern troopers sabre retailed by J J Runkel to the British Army. This shows the level of decoration available from the smiths of Solingen on a regular sword. It also shows the quality and style of the engraving of the time.

Personally, the more I look at Francois’ sword, the more I am inclined to believe it is modern.

Jim McDougall · 29th August 2022, 09:59 PM

Thank you Radboud for the additional detail and insights. I think it seems fairly well established this saber is not from the 18th century period suggested, and it is probably modern, but just where and when produced is the question. In reproduction swords it does not seem blades usually have this level of detail in decorative motif, but of course it can be copied. It is not as if these kinds of markings are unknown to those making copies. As with many modern assembled swords, sometimes authentic blades are used.

I am not familiar with Caissagnard, nor French swords in particular, but have seen motif such as this noting his use on many blades and notably the oriental and occult markings.
Most of these decorative motifs consist of heraldic (as the arm in clouds), astrological and occult, with the 'Turks head' notably used as well and military arms panopolies, were widely used throughout Europe. I believe it is generally held that the engraving of these kinds of motif on blades was done by artisans who worked with blade producers and cutlers, it would seem in most cases independently.
Cutlers of course assembled swords using components often from various vendors as well as scabbard makers etc.

While Solingen was a primary producer of blades, in Eastern Europe there were others however such as Styria (various centers) and many French blades were made there, however often using German makers. There were German makers working in various countries in blade production but there is no discounting that Solingen was by far the largest producer.

That is why this blade is so intriguing, it seems more complex than the types of blades in modern interpretations, and more akin to forms not well known in the Solingen forms usually seen.
The blades imported to England by J J Runkel it seems were mostly through his connections on Solingen with the Neef family, who likely used the same engraver or shop offering a level of consistency in quality. I wonder if the skill level of such artisans could affect the grade of markings in cases, but still observing the general themes and groupings from other shops or those in other countries.

Radboud · 29th August 2022, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The blades imported to England by J J Runkel it seems were mostly through his connections on Solingen with the Neef family, who likely used the same engraver or shop offering a level of consistency in quality.

Unfortunately I don’t think we know enough to be certain that J J Runkel sourced most of his blades from the Neef family.

He certainly had a strong connection to the family as his wife’s maiden name was Neef. And there are examples of his blades marked with the Neef name. However we’d need to know what their production capacity was to know if they were his main source, as he imported blades (and complete swords) by the thousands during the time he was in business.

Jim McDougall · 30th August 2022, 03:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radboud

Unfortunately I don’t think we know enough to be certain that J J Runkel sourced most of his blades from the Neef family.

He certainly had a strong connection to the family as his wife’s maiden name was Neef. And there are examples of his blades marked with the Neef name. However we’d need to know what their production capacity was to know if they were his main source, as he imported blades (and complete swords) by the thousands during the time he was in business.

Point taken, I was referring to material from the late Andrew Mowbray in his "American Eagle Pommel Swords", which I dont have at hand but simply recalling off the cuff. I dont recall how much detail he went into on that topic, but recalled the notable connection.

FRANCOIS · 30th August 2022, 07:39 PM

I had pictures of the other side of the blade.
The turk head is slightly different.

FRANCOIS · 30th August 2022, 08:16 PM

A prima plana M 1765 with a similar blade , with gutters, with a lion pommel identic.

28th August 2022, 01:46 PM	#1
FRANCOIS Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 10	Hussar saber Hello, I have this 18th hussar saber. It's for me a austro hungarian saber but i'd like to specify his origin. There's no mark except CA. Attached Images

29th August 2022, 08:29 PM	#8
Radboud Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: New Zealand Posts: 261	The Turks head is a frequently encountered decoration on late 18th Century blades, seen on swords from many nations. This of course does not preclude that the sword blades were all sourced from the same centre of production; Solingen. Regarding Caissagnard, his blades mostly sport the same three motifs; the sword arm from clouds, smiling sun and the man in the moon as seen in the attached photo. We don’t know if Caissagnard ordered his blades like this or did the decoration himself. The second photo is from a 1788 Pattern troopers sabre retailed by J J Runkel to the British Army. This shows the level of decoration available from the smiths of Solingen on a regular sword. It also shows the quality and style of the engraving of the time. Personally, the more I look at Francois’ sword, the more I am inclined to believe it is modern. Attached Images

30th August 2022, 07:39 PM	#12
FRANCOIS Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 10	I had pictures of the other side of the blade. The turk head is slightly different. Attached Images

30th August 2022, 08:16 PM	#13
FRANCOIS Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 10	A prima plana M 1765 with a similar blade , with gutters, with a lion pommel identic. Attached Images

28th August 2022, 05:48 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Welcome to the forum, François . Let us see what the members think of your nice saber.

28th August 2022, 09:50 PM	#4
Radboud Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: New Zealand Posts: 261	Neat looking sword and not my area of familiarity so make of my observations what you will, but there are a couple of points of concern for me: 1. Looking at how the fullers continue to the tip, it looks like the blade might have been shortened. 2. Your third photo shows what looks like a seam from a mould on the langet; on an original, you'd expect this to have been polished away. 3. The Turks' head engraving feels 'flat'. Difficult to describe, but the originals have more 'spark' to them. 4. The clean, deep CA stamp doesn't match with the late 18th Century style engraved Turks' head decoration.

29th August 2022, 10:33 AM	#5
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 695	Interesting looking sword. It seems to be a combination of styles. The lion pommel, wired grip, and rounded langets is reminiscent of the Austro-Hungarian Prima Plana infantry sabres. The forward curved cross guards are reminiscent of 17thC. The stirrup shaped knuckle guard is reminiscent of 18thC sabre. The scabbard is curiously flat in shape. The brass details don’t look naturally aged. There’s no indentation at the mouth to fit the langets of the sword. The only ring to fasten the scabbard is at the mouth so presumably it’s supposed to be worn from a belt in infantry fashion?

29th August 2022, 11:42 AM	#6
FRANCOIS Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 10	it's a cavalry saber, the blade is long and wide;but it's the first time I see this suspension system (except for infantry of course), maybe a request from its owner. the guard is not common. I do not know how to locate and date this saber

29th August 2022, 02:50 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	I agree with Victrix, this saber is an anomaly in its fusion of various element styles, as well as unusual scabbard in its suspension, which should be the usual rings. These were usual worn slung from the side, which was of course the purpose of the drag on the scabbard chape as these were often low slung when dismounted. The scrolled quillon terminals on the guard are most unusual as actually there would only be one, while the knuckle guard extended into the cross guard and needed no such fixture at the base. This vestigial terminal is most odd. The sword overall does not correspond to anything I can find in references on Austro-Hungarian swords, but I agree, there seems in inclination toward that influence. The blade too is unusual in the channels and the fuller extending to the point, recalling in a sense the blades with heavier distal features often including yelman to add weight and impetus to slashing cuts. However, the unusually crisp CA poincon is not like anything I have seen on blade markings of 18th c. nor are the shape of the letters. The etched markings on the blade are nicely fashioned resembling the 'oriental occult' style motif often applied to French blades of 'caissagnard decoration' which seem to have been applied in Nantes locations from mid to latter 18th c. Some this style decoration seems used in other countries as well in similar manner, including of course Eastern Europe. Which brings to mind that there were elements of cavalry in the French army from Austro-Hungarian origin, which seem to have evolved perhaps from the 'pandour' forces which created notable interest to the French. Here I would note that the unusual fluted langet resembles certain small sword styling of French origin in the late 18th c. which was seen on the heavier officers versions of these. As officers of course commissioned their own swords and had them privately made by cutlers and outfitters, it does not seem surprising that these kinds of unusually appointed swords would exist. With that in mind, and that officers often were in the service of other countries, the influences of any number of sources might be at hand. Whatever the case, an extremely attractive saber!

29th August 2022, 09:59 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	Thank you Radboud for the additional detail and insights. I think it seems fairly well established this saber is not from the 18th century period suggested, and it is probably modern, but just where and when produced is the question. In reproduction swords it does not seem blades usually have this level of detail in decorative motif, but of course it can be copied. It is not as if these kinds of markings are unknown to those making copies. As with many modern assembled swords, sometimes authentic blades are used. I am not familiar with Caissagnard, nor French swords in particular, but have seen motif such as this noting his use on many blades and notably the oriental and occult markings. Most of these decorative motifs consist of heraldic (as the arm in clouds), astrological and occult, with the 'Turks head' notably used as well and military arms panopolies, were widely used throughout Europe. I believe it is generally held that the engraving of these kinds of motif on blades was done by artisans who worked with blade producers and cutlers, it would seem in most cases independently. Cutlers of course assembled swords using components often from various vendors as well as scabbard makers etc. While Solingen was a primary producer of blades, in Eastern Europe there were others however such as Styria (various centers) and many French blades were made there, however often using German makers. There were German makers working in various countries in blade production but there is no discounting that Solingen was by far the largest producer. That is why this blade is so intriguing, it seems more complex than the types of blades in modern interpretations, and more akin to forms not well known in the Solingen forms usually seen. The blades imported to England by J J Runkel it seems were mostly through his connections on Solingen with the Neef family, who likely used the same engraver or shop offering a level of consistency in quality. I wonder if the skill level of such artisans could affect the grade of markings in cases, but still observing the general themes and groupings from other shops or those in other countries.